What should a newbie use in their list?

[Elric of Grans]

I would like to ask a "what list" question with a little twist. What kinds of elements would you suggest a newbie should experiment with in early games while (a) learning the game, and (b) identifying their play style? Rather than the "building an army on a budget" sense used in the articles on this site, I am considering proxies being fair-game/standard for the learning period.

Obviously you need a Lieutenant, and I guess a Hacker is important to learn (given everyone says Infowar is a big deal in N3), but beyond that I am kind of stumped. I have the Project: Icestorm box (currently slowly assembling the minis) but still have not decided what faction to play or identified what my play-style is (then again, after all these years I still do not know what my 40K play-style is either ). I want to explore a little before I pick a direction and make some purchases (probably using those aforementioned articles as a guideline).

[Errhile]

Well, you'd need at least 8 Regular orders starting on the table. And preferably 10 Regular orders per combat group, though it is rarely doable with more than one combat group.

That's where the general advice ends.

Now, it would be wise to have some SWC guns. A sniper rifle for those cases where you need to seriously outrange somethg. A HMG (a Spitfire could do, too) for sending loads of lead into your target. A Missile or Rocket Launcher, or at least a Panzerfaust, to blast those heavy targets into smitherens.

If you want a hacker, please do - but then a hacker needs either Infiltration (and Camouflage, if available) to get close to his targets, or an appropriate repeater network.

I think you could find it handy to keep an ace up your sleeve - an airlanding troop ready to intervene if your force gets struck somewhere.

Sometimes, it pays to divide your force into "actors" (who are expensive, but good at fighting - and therefore will be bearing the weight of your action) and "cheeleaders" (who should be cheap, and their main role is to provide Orders).
Another philosophy is dividing them into "teeth" (who will go after your opponent and bits) and "shell" (who will be mailny staying in your Deployment Zone and generate Orders... but also provide rear-area defense and ARO across the table if possible). Balancing between these two, however, is somewhat difficult.

[Section9]

A Lieutenant. (Duh, and I'll stop insulting you now).

Orders. Like Errhile said, 8-10 orders, even at 200 points. Gotta have enough orders to do stuff. 6-7 orders just isn't enough to do what needs to happen.

Guns. There's two different parts to this: First is that you should spend most of your available SWC, if not all of it. Second is that you need to have weapons with several different range curves. If you only have rifle-range guns, you're going to get outranged by everyone who took anything else. You want something with a long range, something short, etc.

Speed. Not just sheer foot-speed, either. If you have a model that starts halfway across the table but only moves 4-2, you still don't have to spend points moving them up the table. So Motorcycles (8-6), REMs (6-6 or 6-4), AD, Infiltrators, Advanced Deployment, Mech Deployment... all works out.

[Groundworks]

If you are using proxies to learn and test, I'd suggest picking 2 interesting units you like the look of. Put them in separate combat grounds and spend your remaining points filling these up with basic rifle troopers.

I'm suggesting this as it will do 2 things for you in the beginning.

1. Result in you spending alot of orders on a particular troop thus getting to know its equipment/rules well and how to get the most from it. After which you can then switch it for a new unit and proceed to master that one.

2. On the occasions where he goes down early to an alpha strike or crit you will learn how to fall back on and use your basic LI to carry you through the game. This is a very useful and valuable skill.

[Pierzasty]

Good options to consider. Even if you end up not using them as unsuited to your playstyle, it pays to know their capabilities. Roughly in order of decreasing importance. Also, cheap basic LI to pad the orders.

- 1-2 camo infiltrator specialist (FO as a cheap variant, hacker if you want it to have some offensove oomph as well)
- 2 HMGs, good options are: HI, linked line infantry, reaction drone. Can be substituted with faction-specific options like Intruder/Yan Huo HRMC/Tankhunter AC
- MSV2 long range gun (typically sniper/HMG) paired with:
- cheap chain-smoker warbands to lay down smokescreen (typically at the same time special-dodging on 16), tank mines/koalas, threaten useful camo infiltrators with intuitive chain rifle fire
- sensor drones, they're cheap fast specialists and can detect TO camo units in HD
- Warcor - pretty much a must-have, for 3pts you get a pair of eyes to discover and a Flash Pulse ARO. And if he dies, welp, he cost a whole 3 pts.
- terror unit - basically something whose main purpose is to be as much of a nuisance to the enemy as humanly possible. Make him waste orders trying to remove the threat, or ignore it and lose expensive/useful units. Impersonators, ninjas, and the like.
- AD3 unit - learn when to use AD3 (when the enemy has poor/dead hackers and/or gaps in DZ defense) and AD2 (otherwise), good variants are BS for terrifying close range, combi specialist for ITS, and heavy weapon to set fire support from unexpected angles.
- specialized drones (i.e. not the basic 4 (reaction/sensor/GML/repeater) nor baggage) tend to be very good and worth taking
- if you take drones, basic LI hacker (as in, standard hacking device, not assault) so you can put Supportware on them.
- if playing , Custodier with Marker is nasty. Very good hacking options, marker expands your hacking range massively, and is a LT in ODD.
- if playing , try a Father-Knight hacker or those asshole drones in ODD.

[alexb83]

I've bought different armies in different ways, and I think what you buy influences what you play. With my Nomads I started with a starter, then ballooned out my Coreggidor, then my Bakunin and so forth.

With Aleph, I started with a few pretty models like Penthesilea and have built around them (they're the terror units that Pierzasty talks about).

With Military Orders I started with Joan and built around her with heavy infantry, fusiliers and REMs - but they're an odd fish of an army.

TAGs are good fun to toy with, too - once you are up to speed with the basic rules of play. They can also flesh out fledgling army lists with that 100-odd extra points to get you up to 300.



Really, the starter boxes set you up well to build a core army, try all the rules and expand into something bigger/better.

Your 3 basic LI give you orders, and can be used as cut-price specialists. You can also get a hacker out of them, and a lieutenant almost without fail. They can easily be bulked out into a sectorial link team with an SWC box.

The MI Sniper (or similar) you invariably get lets you try out long range weaponry.

The HI you get lets you try out heavier multi-wound models and usually has a lieutenant option.

Then there's usually a camo/infiltrating specialist or AD model in there, to add another dimension.

From there - you can bulk out any number of ways.

If I take the nomads starter for an example, with the simple addition of a Mobile Brigada box set, a Zond Remotes box and an Alguacile SWC box you have made yourself a pretty solid basis for an army.

[Section9]

A Lieutenant. (Duh, and I'll stop insulting you now).

Orders. Like Errhile said, 8-10 orders, even at 200 points. Gotta have enough orders to do stuff. 6-7 orders just isn't enough to do what needs to happen.

Guns. There's two different parts to this: First is that you should spend most of your available SWC, if not all of it. Second is that you need to have weapons with several different range curves. If you only have rifle-range guns, you're going to get outranged by everyone who took anything else. You want something with a long range, something short, etc.

Speed. Not just sheer foot-speed, either. If you have a model that starts halfway across the table but only moves 4-2, you still don't have to spend points moving them up the table. So Motorcycles (8-6), REMs (6-6 or 6-4), AD, Infiltrators, Advanced Deployment, Mech Deployment... all works out.

I need to add Specialists to this list. Specialists are needed for any game that's not a kill-em-all. Under most scenarios, which specialist you're using doesn't matter, just that the model is a specialist. Hacker, Doc, Engineer, Forward Observer, Paramedic, Chain of Command, or just a basic Specialist (only found on some named characters). As a side note, Fast Specialists are usually better than normal-speed types.

I typically bring at least one Hacker, a Doc, and an Engineer. Sometimes it's an FO. Some armies, like the JSA, have either fragile or in-harm's-way LTs, so taking a Chain of Command model is a good idea.

My typical list has ~3 heavy weapons (usually Spitfire or HMG, Sniper Rifle, and something else), and ~4 specialists. Doctor and Engineer are fragile 1W models, so I try to also take helperbots to keep the specialist alive longer.

I usually have at least one hacker, often two, with two different hacking devices. Usually a basic hacker and a Daofei assault hacker, because the Daofei is an infiltrating Heavy Infantry model. "Fast" Specialist.

[LordOfDarkness]

Can you advice me with my list? I play I builded the army around models that i like and after buying them i thought that i want hacking. Thats why i have 3 guys with repeaters, and they are supposed to place them somewhere in the middle of the table and let the hackers do their job. Also i brught some AD with supperior combat jump to use it when the riht moment appears and some other AD to keeep the opponent on their half of the table. But i think this list is bad. I cant win much(maby its the problem with list, or i'm not yet good at the game itself. I play for something about 2 weeks)

Open with Army 5

[Pierzasty]

Can you advice me with my list? I play I builded the army around models that i like and after buying them i thought that i want hacking. Thats why i have 3 guys with repeaters, and they are supposed to place them somewhere in the middle of the table and let the hackers do their job. Also i brught some AD with supperior combat jump to use it when the riht moment appears and some other AD to keeep the opponent on their half of the table. But i think this list is bad. I cant win much(maby its the problem with list, or i'm not yet good at the game itself. I play for something about 2 weeks)

Open with Army 5

First, it's best to paste the whole thing so you get something like the list below, instead of just the code.

Second, list improved by me:

Nomads
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 9 0 0
INTERVENTOR Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Boarding Shotgun, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)
REVEREND CUSTODIER Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle + Marker / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
MOBILE BRIGADA MULTI Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (39)
PROWLER Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 36)
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (21)
INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42)
SPEKTR (Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (32)
ALGUACIL Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)

Group 2 3 0 0
ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
TOMCAT Doctor Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (22)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle + Marker / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 11)

5 SWC | 299 Points

Open with Army 5

- Interventor is more static so he gets the LT, BS (so you can tuck him into a defensive position, hack through repeaters/panda, and anything that wants to come to him gets a shotgun blast at +6 to the face. The Custodier is a more offensive hacker, she can actually be protected by her ODD and you'll have to risk her more to use the marker to its full potential. Forget about Alguaciles, they're there for backup ITS specialists and orderbots, if you want extra hacking coverage take a Moderator with marker. Grenzer is OK for area control but you seem to lack heavy firepower so I upgraded him to an Intruder HMG. 3 AD are too much unless you're running a ~20-order list, so I kicked out one Tomcat (the other is to be transferred into the main combat group once the Hellcat bites it after a risky/suicide run) and the Zondcat (I don't feel the need for an AD helperbot now that they can't enter through a different section, if you do want one I'd take a plain zondbot and put it somewhere backfield just in case).

Alternatively, get rid of the Interventor entirely (the Custodier should manage if you use her carefully and don't run into some uber-beast like a Charontid hacker) and take an assault hacker (like a Zero or switch the Hellcat to the hacker variant) so you have access to Claw-3 programs. Also, they're cheaper and start closer to the enemy.

ed: I didn't notice the Spektr :doh: definitely switch him to a full hacker then. Smoke is something you could use for the MSV2.

Next version (warning: more optimized at the cost of extra/different models)

Nomads
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 10 0 0
REVEREND CUSTODIER Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Marker / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
PROWLER Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 36)
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (21)
SPEKTR Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36)
INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42)
LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (26)
ALGUACIL Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle + Marker / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 11)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9)

Group 2 3 1 1
TOMCAT Doctor Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (22)
REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (10)
MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (6)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open with Army 5

[LordOfDarkness]

And what about adding chimera? By that list i was trying to find my playstyle. I know that o dont want to be drop heavy(that one hellcat is enough). Also i realy enjoy using my mobile brigada. Hacking is also my thing. So should i go thowards corregidor or Bakunin with this models that o have?

[Errhile]

If you want to use multiple Uberfallkommandos, you need to go Bakunin. Still, that means Mobile Briagada, Intruders, Interventors, Tomcats and Hellcats are off the menu.

If you want to field closely-knit teams of Mobile Brigadas, you need to go Corregidor. But this would mean forfeiting Interventors, all the Reverend bunch, Morlocks, Spektrs, Prowlers...

If you want to have an Interventor on table, then - untill Tunguska is released - you have to stay vanilla. Though Reverend Custodier hackers aren't shabby either, and pack HD+'s IIRC. Still, vanilla Nomads have access to all the Nomad units - at the expense of lower AVA of some troops (you can't field 5 or 6 Mobile Brigadas in vanilla. Nor 5 Intruders), and no ability to form Link Teams. You also get access to all the Mercenaries, as they are pretty unversally available to vanilla armies.

Just a matter of what do you want...

[LordOfDarkness]

I think i will go thowards bakunin. Riot Grrl can be a replacement for brigada, and i can field all of those sexy moiras. Also Lizard is awesome. So will it work?
Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 12 1 1
REVEREND CUSTODIER Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Marker / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
PROWLER Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 36)
MODERATOR Spitfire / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 15)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9)
MODERATOR Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (11)
REVEREND MOIRA MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (30)
SIN-EATER Mk12 / Pistol, CCW. (30)
ZERO (Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (19)
ZERO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
REVEREND HEALER Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CCW. (32)
CHIMERA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Viral CCW. (20)
3x PUPNIK DA CCW. (3)
RIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (28)

3.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open with Army 5

[Errhile]

For my taste - make a way to fit a 5th Moderator in. having a 5-model Link Team gives serious bonuses.
Also, Riot Grrl with a Boarding Shotgun is effective only up close. I'd rather pay extra to have a longer-ranged weapon on her.

Though it always depends on your taste. You'd have to scrifice something to make one or both of the above happen, after all...

Ah, and one very important thing: the list shown contains 13 models, right? If I'm not mistaken ,it is one comabt group of 12 Regular and 1 Irregular Impetous model.
This is illegal by Infinity rules, as a single combat group can not contain more than 10 models (composite entires like Uberfall Commando are considered to be a single choice, despite being up to 4 individual figures - Chimera and up to 3 Pupniks).

[LordOfDarkness]

And what about this vanilla nomad list?
Nomads
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 8 0 0
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (21)
TOMCAT Doctor Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + 1 Zondcat / Pistol, Knife. (26)
ZONDCAT Electric Pulse. (4)
MOBILE BRIGADA HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 42)
INTERVENTOR Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (26)
ALGUACIL Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)
ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)

Group 2 6 1 1
PROWLER Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 36)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9)
MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9)
MODERATOR Spitfire / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 15)
ZERO (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
REVEREND CUSTODIER Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Marker / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (6)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open with Army 5

[Errhile]

6 Regular Orders per group (+2 in AD in #1, 1 Irregular Impetous in #2)?

Pretty daring, I'd say. It is playable, of course, but it'll require some serious skill to pull off efficiently.

Well, for a comparison, here's a Corregidor list I used yesterday:

Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 9 1 0
TOMCAT Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (20)
WILDCAT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (2 | 20)
WILDCAT Boarding Shotgun, Flash Grenades, Deployable Repeater / Pistol, Knife. (18)
WILDCAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
WILDCAT (Number 2) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (20)
WILDCAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (8)
SALYUT (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (8)
VALERYA GROMOZ Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Marker / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
BANDIT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Light Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 28)

Group 2 6 0 0
TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (8)
SALYUT (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (8)
DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (14)
INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42)
ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
MORAN Boarding Shotgun, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
MORAN Boarding Shotgun, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)

5.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open with Army 5

Actually, the Tomcat managed to EM both Achilles and Hector, at which point my opponent considered himself done. He was using a list like the one below:

Steel Phalanx
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 10 0 0
HECTOR Lieutenant Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser, Stun Grenades + 1 TinBot A / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (71)
ACHILLES Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CCW. (2.5 | 75)
NETROD Electric Pulse. (4)
ALKÊ Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 26)
THORAKITES Submachine gun, Chain Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (12)
THORAKITES Submachine gun, Chain Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (12)
THORAKITES Submachine gun, Chain Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (12)
MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16)
MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16)
MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16)

Group 2 1 0 0
MYRMIDON (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 37)

5 SWC | 297 Points

Open with Army 5

[LordOfDarkness]

So should i move tomcat to the other group? Im very newbie in infinity and im trying to make a playable list. For now i was playing on list consisting 4-5 models that costed 30+points so for 300 i had 12 orders max, for 200 i had 9 but with AD.

[Errhile]

First, the rule of thumb, which is generally accepted by a majority of players, is "your main group should be starting with at least 8 Regular Orders on table". A model in AD isn't on table (it needs to consume its own Order to appear on table). A model in Hidden Deployment isn't on table (for that kind of count).

Not a rule set in stone, but generally- it works.

As for a second group, it may be composed along the same lines. It may be also constructed as a reactive group (models acting primarily in ARO - snipers, Total Reaction REMs and the like) with one or two models you'd be feeding Orders to in active turn. This kind of second group also makes up your reserve from which you transfer models to the main group (when it takes casualties) - such second group can be as small as one model on its own (usually a TR REM, sometimes a sniper).

One of pretty typical bulids is "heavy-hitters and cheerleaders" - afew powerful offensive models and a number of cheap Regular "order monkeys", usually Light Infantry types on a budget.