In my meta we play almost exclusively on urban/industrial tables. I get the sense that's how most people play, but after reading Campaign Paradiso I also get the sense that the game's intended for a wider variety of terrain types. I've now had the opportunity to play on three seperate jungle tables and I found it to be a very different experience. For that reason, I want to start a thread and encourage everyone to post their own experiences and advice on how to manage this type of terrain. I'll start:
1. Go prone, the ground is your friend. If you're in the middle of an unexplored jungle, there is going to be very little "hard" cover. You'll have jungle (-3 visibility zone) and thick jungle (0 visibility zone) but neither of those will provide +3 ARM. You'll have to find the occasional rock spire or boulder field for cover, but you can also take cover on hilltops. Even a 1/2" elevation will give you cover (and therefore a big advantage) over an opponent if you're prone.
2. Go prone, it's the only way to hide. The other problem with jungle tables is that -3 visibility zones don't actually protect you from incoming fire. And even 0 visibility zones can be suppressed through. So you might think you're parking an important figure behind a 0 visibility zone, only to find yourself under heavy fire from clear across the table. "Hard" cover like hills and spires and boulders can be few and far between. Even when you think you're hidden a simple enemy movement can reveal a part of your figure. For this reason, it's best to end your movement prone (unless you're purposefully setting up for ARO). It's much, much harder to draw line of sights through all the random terrain when all you can see is the base. Also, again, those 1/2" hills won'ts hide a standing figure, but they will hide a prone one.
3. Think twice about Remotes, Bikes and TAGs. None of these figures can go prone. That makes them really vulnerable. Furthermore, they all suffer from really bad movement rules through difficult terrain. Aragato bikes, for example, largely rely on being able to win face to face rolls during their active turn. But because they can't drive through the jungle, they'll always be in the open, and that makes them easy to gun down. Helper G:Servant remotes really suffer from the fact that they can't crawl. I haven't tried TAGs yet; because they have heavy, long-range weaponry and good armor I think they might do okay, actually, but I haven't tried them.
4. Light Infantry is your friend. Even without special terrain skills, Light Infantry moves well in jungle.
5. MSV is your friend. Duh. Basically turns the entire table into a giant, clear, field. A single Djanbazan sniper could have a field day.
6. Jungle Terrain Skill is your friend. Again, duh. Djanbazan for the win.
Jungle Combat
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Having played a lot of games with jungle and woodland terrain, treating it all as low vis zones and zero vis zones is a really good way to have an unenjoyable game. 
MSV2-3 will cause utter havoc, as will Fireteams of 4+ models as Sixth Sense 2 will be letting them shoot anyone who makes an attack without the -6 ZVZ penalty.
The way we've been playing it:
Models touching the edge of the woodland are in cover.
Within ZoC everyone is visible but is in a low-vis zone and cover.
Outside ZoC everyone is behind zero-vis smoke that also applies to SS2 models, and in cover.
If there's one thing that's really good at stopping bullets, it's thick tree trunks...
MSV2-3 will cause utter havoc, as will Fireteams of 4+ models as Sixth Sense 2 will be letting them shoot anyone who makes an attack without the -6 ZVZ penalty.
The way we've been playing it:
Models touching the edge of the woodland are in cover.
Within ZoC everyone is visible but is in a low-vis zone and cover.
Outside ZoC everyone is behind zero-vis smoke that also applies to SS2 models, and in cover.
If there's one thing that's really good at stopping bullets, it's thick tree trunks...
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IJW Wartrader - Posts: 537
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SgtHulka wrote:Even a 1/2" elevation will give you cover (and therefore a big advantage) over an opponent if you're prone.
Only over a prone opponent, you have to be higher than the opponent to claim cover like that. If you're not partly hidden, you don't get cover.
I thought you just had to be at a higher elevation.
Yes, but it will have to be higher than the whole of the enemy model. If you're lying down on a foot-high rise in the ground in front of somebody who's six feet tall you're going to be lower down that they are. 
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IJW Wartrader - Posts: 537
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That's because roof cover is not an abstract rule, it's because if you lie prone on a roof edge you'll be mostly covered from the viewpoint of someone standing on ground level. Trying to do this when you're yourself like a meter over ground would be suicide.
Why does that sound like the Sniping some of the famous snipers done...
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JTM93 - Posts: 165
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Famous snipers had CH: Mimetism and no enemies with MSVs 
A British Sniper wore bright colours & was facing men armed with visual equipment akin to FLIR and Such. They knew exactly where he was sadly they couldn't fire on him do to them not being able to fire down enough at him. He was on top of 2 Mattresses stacked on around 30 Yards away from the assailants. The angle was enough to where they couldn't get a good enough shot to hit his profile.
And not everyone has MSVs in Infinity.
And not everyone has MSVs in Infinity.
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JTM93 - Posts: 165
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Infinity rules have some degree of realism, but are not real. My best example is no range measurement when officials have the position of most soldiers in action, friend and enemy. Combat computers with coordinates but unable to do basic maths. 
I can understand it was added to require some visual skill (or handicap those unable to guess distances...), but it doesn't become less silly in fluff context.
Also, while the basic rules had strong references to terrain like Multiterrain (and also references to vehicles
or doors or terrain "reshapping" or carrying soldiers before casevac rule was written...), it seems terrain rules were done quickly, and not pushed enough as something to be used (which could lead to some reviews to clarify and balance and some changes instead of the plenty of home rules, like IJW ones). Building interiors is another such case.
I can understand it was added to require some visual skill (or handicap those unable to guess distances...), but it doesn't become less silly in fluff context.Also, while the basic rules had strong references to terrain like Multiterrain (and also references to vehicles
or doors or terrain "reshapping" or carrying soldiers before casevac rule was written...), it seems terrain rules were done quickly, and not pushed enough as something to be used (which could lead to some reviews to clarify and balance and some changes instead of the plenty of home rules, like IJW ones). Building interiors is another such case.If not worth saving, is it worth rewriting? What is more, was it worth writing?
- Mob of Blondes
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My intention wasn't to debate the rules!
PIerzasty, thanks for the info regarding higher elevations. My understanding came from reading the rule itself, but I hadn't looked at the official diagrams. The diagrams clearly show that you and IJW are correct (as usual).
IJW, getting back to the jungle discussion, you have waaaaay more experience than I in this game so I certainly won't debate the merits of the environmental rules. Admittedly I have my own issues with them (such as a visual representation of what the heck tall mountains are supposed to look like on the table...a ring of rock spires, maybe? But then why wouldn't they just be hard cover?) I know the rules have been debated a lot on the official infinity forum, my intention for this thread wasn't to debate that. It was just to give tips for the rules as written. Saying "I have no tips because the rules as written aren't fun" is certainly valid.
Back to the original purpose, with my new understanding of the prone elevation cover rules, I'd say it's still super-important to be able to go prone, because it's the only true way to hide behind low rises. Patiently crawling, though slow, is the best way to get around. That said, if you're using YAMS or one of the 4-turn missions, you'd better not crawl.
Per IJW's point about sixth sense link squads, I'd also add that to the list -- take a sectorial or have a really good reason not to! Linking provides a big advantage in Woods/Jungle. The sixth sense thing is huge, but so is the +3 BS, especially if you're trying to suppress through zero visibility zones (actually...I'll have to check on that...not sure if suppression is a valid link squad action).
Regarding the realism debate, that will take us right back to the debate on whether the rules are good or not which is what I'm trying to avoid
PIerzasty, thanks for the info regarding higher elevations. My understanding came from reading the rule itself, but I hadn't looked at the official diagrams. The diagrams clearly show that you and IJW are correct (as usual).
IJW, getting back to the jungle discussion, you have waaaaay more experience than I in this game so I certainly won't debate the merits of the environmental rules. Admittedly I have my own issues with them (such as a visual representation of what the heck tall mountains are supposed to look like on the table...a ring of rock spires, maybe? But then why wouldn't they just be hard cover?) I know the rules have been debated a lot on the official infinity forum, my intention for this thread wasn't to debate that. It was just to give tips for the rules as written. Saying "I have no tips because the rules as written aren't fun" is certainly valid.
Back to the original purpose, with my new understanding of the prone elevation cover rules, I'd say it's still super-important to be able to go prone, because it's the only true way to hide behind low rises. Patiently crawling, though slow, is the best way to get around. That said, if you're using YAMS or one of the 4-turn missions, you'd better not crawl.
Per IJW's point about sixth sense link squads, I'd also add that to the list -- take a sectorial or have a really good reason not to! Linking provides a big advantage in Woods/Jungle. The sixth sense thing is huge, but so is the +3 BS, especially if you're trying to suppress through zero visibility zones (actually...I'll have to check on that...not sure if suppression is a valid link squad action).
Regarding the realism debate, that will take us right back to the debate on whether the rules are good or not which is what I'm trying to avoid
The rules seem rushed and lacking detail or being poorly worded (too open ended?), and as proof we have that people quickly miss that they are also about the surface condition, surface angle, temperature, air consistency, gravity... Not just a big rock called mountain or lots of trees being called jungle. It's not about debating the rules, but getting them understood and applied (ok, maybe some debate as testing increases and home rules can become official). The books need more examples of all kinds, including the visual type or complex invisible cases , instead of a couple of pages at the end. Pictures of game tables, but also graphs of how things would play.
Back to "current rules as written":
Mountain also covers artic plains. Very inclined hill sides would also be covered, while being nearly flat, they would offer no cover.
Soft sand or lose rocks would be desert (or mountain in the case of rocks, players choice). The visualization of that can range from nothing (easy if all the table) to just some measured zones with some marks, or card/plastic/MDF with some decoration glued or movable.
For jungle, you could do card areas, flock them with a mix of green and brown and other things, and then put movable plants that offer no cover per se. Just agree that the rocks and trunks inside the cards really give cover, and the bases with long grass/bamboo is just decoration that can be moved to check LoS. Also decide if all cards affect the movement in the same way (boring) or different (jungle floor with or without mud and lots of roots), and if they affect visibility or not (lots of low plants vs trees with haging foilage everywhere). This can be depicted with paper notes or by varying the card decoration (just flock = difficult, plus roots made with threads = very difficult, plus water effects for mud = impassable) and movable add-ons on top (fine trunks = low visibility, tall grass/walls of flock = zero).
Remotes, bikes and others would still be able to move using the lanes left by the zones. Just like they go around buildings in cities.
Suppression Fire is valid for link teams, but there is only one corridor, starting at the leader.
, instead of a couple of pages at the end. Pictures of game tables, but also graphs of how things would play.Back to "current rules as written":
Mountain also covers artic plains. Very inclined hill sides would also be covered, while being nearly flat, they would offer no cover.
Soft sand or lose rocks would be desert (or mountain in the case of rocks, players choice). The visualization of that can range from nothing (easy if all the table) to just some measured zones with some marks, or card/plastic/MDF with some decoration glued or movable.For jungle, you could do card areas, flock them with a mix of green and brown and other things, and then put movable plants that offer no cover per se. Just agree that the rocks and trunks inside the cards really give cover, and the bases with long grass/bamboo is just decoration that can be moved to check LoS. Also decide if all cards affect the movement in the same way (boring) or different (jungle floor with or without mud and lots of roots), and if they affect visibility or not (lots of low plants vs trees with haging foilage everywhere). This can be depicted with paper notes or by varying the card decoration (just flock = difficult, plus roots made with threads = very difficult, plus water effects for mud = impassable) and movable add-ons on top (fine trunks = low visibility, tall grass/walls of flock = zero).
Remotes, bikes and others would still be able to move using the lanes left by the zones. Just like they go around buildings in cities.
Suppression Fire is valid for link teams, but there is only one corridor, starting at the leader.
If not worth saving, is it worth rewriting? What is more, was it worth writing?
- Mob of Blondes
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Removable trees are nice but they add on preparation and packing-away time. Plus they get knocked over, get lost etc. etc.
I use really thick clumps of jungle (aquarium plants glued onto oval MDF sections), which generally have a space in the centre of the terrain piece to place minis. Generally they are no more than 3-4" to the centre part, so you can put your mini in cover there. If the mini is in the centre or near the edge looking out, they have cover. A mini behind the jungle template is considered to have Total Cover.
In reality, jungles are very rarely situated on flood plains, so there are lots of dips and rises in the terrain. This alters the heights of canopies so while you can look out across a wide open valley, you can't see 30m to your left or right.
You can also make life simpler by putting jungle templates on top of regular mountainous feature like ridges etc.
I use really thick clumps of jungle (aquarium plants glued onto oval MDF sections), which generally have a space in the centre of the terrain piece to place minis. Generally they are no more than 3-4" to the centre part, so you can put your mini in cover there. If the mini is in the centre or near the edge looking out, they have cover. A mini behind the jungle template is considered to have Total Cover.
In reality, jungles are very rarely situated on flood plains, so there are lots of dips and rises in the terrain. This alters the heights of canopies so while you can look out across a wide open valley, you can't see 30m to your left or right.
You can also make life simpler by putting jungle templates on top of regular mountainous feature like ridges etc.
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Lampyridae - Posts: 699
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