Sci-Fi Traffic Hazards Kickstarter

[kidterminal]

Wow those are cool Steve. Your going to have to offer the texture for sale to builders can make their boards in the same pattern.

[daviddasilva]

What is the Middle One? And excellent designs...

looks like the Corel Postscript fills from left to right modified "hexagon""patio" "triangles"

was going to use those for my floors but the file size would crash the laser print drivers for the big 11 X 17 sheets

[JTM93]

Was referring to the Middle Mech... but just nods and smiles.

[atropos907]

The middle and right mech are Zandris IV.
The left is obvious to this group.
The mech Im designing will probably stand about 20% taller and carry a couple heavy weapons as it will be intended as a heavy support mech... so far. Not even sure if I will give it mech arms, smaller manipulation arms, both(like the lizard), or neither. Heavy weapons will probably be underslung or shoulder/back mounted. Then Ill probably give up when I see what the 3d print and pewter/resin production costs quote to.

[JTM93]

Our system has a mecha type around 60mm Tall (with 28/32mm Mecha being around 8-9 Meters Tall).

So yeah our Plasti-Resin* Quote was kinda high at around 15$ each with Pewter and Hard Plastic being more expensive. Though this thing literally comes with more parts than some of the newer GW infantry kits. Though that was for a kit to make 3 different Mecha.

*Plati-Resin: The term we use for a Plastic Resin Hybrid we looked into similar to the Plastic used by Privateer Press.

[Antenociti]

*Plati-Resin: The term we use for a Plastic Resin Hybrid we looked into similar to the Plastic used by Privateer Press.

You know that "plastic-Resin" is a bit of an oxymoron fwiw? ... its a little bit like ""Vinyl Plastic"

Just to make things "fun" some american manufacturers of standard 2-part resins sell them as "casting plastic" and similarly wonderful obscure portmanteaus to make them sound "more" than they are.

It once took me many, many hours to convince somebody that the expensive "plastic resin" they were buying was "bog standard" resin with.... blue pigment in it.

They'd been using it for 3 years and paying about 35% premium on it.

[Mob of Blondes]

*Plati-Resin: The term we use for a Plastic Resin Hybrid we looked into similar to the Plastic used by Privateer Press.

What product and brand was/is that? You know, this forums allows posting non official names.

[JTM93]

I don't know the brands he mixes for it but it sets up durable. Literally it has bent the Scalpels we use.

And the Plasti-Resin is a mix of normal Model Grade Plastic and Resin to get the properties of both.

[Mob of Blondes]

Hmmm... "he" = Trollforge?

Model grade plastic is, to my knowledge, shipped as polymerized pellets. And then it needs heat and pressure to flow. I need to investigate more the concept suspension. Antenociti probably knows more about thermosoftening and thermoset polymers.

[Antenociti]

OK, long, very long, potentially very boring post time:

Hmmm... "he" = Trollforge?

Model grade plastic is, to my knowledge, shipped as polymerized pellets. And then it needs heat and pressure to flow. I need to investigate more the concept suspension. Antenociti probably knows more about thermosoftening and thermoset polymers.

"Model grade plastic is, to my knowledge, shipped as polymerized pellets" - correct... mostly....ish
However, the pellets are sometimes referred to as "resin" within the industry (esp~ USA), generally until melted at which point its referred to as plastic again - "dont ask" - its a nightmare.

Resin and polymer are different in chemical terms: resin is a compound while polymers are macromolecules.
Polyurethane resin cures in a one-way cehmical reaction: once done you cant revert it. It is "Thermosetting" (Thermosetting polymer)
Plastic can be re-melted and reformed...its is "Thermoplastic"

There's a useful and reasonably accurate rule-of-thumb for the difference between resin and plastic: plastic you can re-melt and re-use, resin you cant. Its not 100% but its an easy way to be pretty certain of the difference.

But, now for the problem bit: "Plastic" as a term can be applied to both thermosetting polymers and thermoplastics.
Generally (and I emphasise GENERALLY) people regard the term plastic to mean plastic as in model kits, cd-cases, disposable razors, BIG pens and so forth) - GENERALLY

TTBOMK Ed @ trollforge retired his experiments on his 'specialty stuff' and uses branded smooth-on now... and smooth-on are a good example of mixing in "confusing" nomenclature into their product names.

Perfect Example: Here is the trade names of the product: "Smooth-Cast® 300 Series Bright White Liquid Plastic"
And here is Smooth-Ons own description of the product: "The Smooth Cast® 300 Series of liquid plastics are ultra-low viscosity casting resins that yield castings that are bright white and virtually bubble free."

eh? WTH?

How does this affect you & your product?
In practice, in terms of production - it doesnt. It doesnt really matter what you call it so long as you know how to use it.
However selling a product as "plastic" when it is "resin" can cause major issues for your customers because THEY regard the two as completely different products/materials (and they generally are PERCEIVED to be).
For one thing you have different material properties that affect glue, paint and storage and you can radically change your customers opinion of your product f.ex:

25 plastic figures for $150 USD
25 resin figures for $150 USD

The above will, to many gamers, offer a completely different pictures of value for money and how you may end up using them (display or gaming)....So terminology can be important.


Now, having said all of that, there are res-plastic (resin polymer) hybrids in development and use, however these are mostly organics atm and even those synthetic ones (such as low-melt plastic suspended in a thermo-setting resin) do not necessarily offer you the "best of both worlds" as may be imagined...they also are generally a suspension of one in the other, not a combination ... f.ex you can add a plastic powder to a resin that thermo-sets at a high enough temperature to melt (activate) the plastic within it... now once cured you cannot re-use that substance; the "plastic" is buried (if you like) within the perma-cured resin. But if the resin is cured, and thus solid, does the elasticity (wont snap/shatter as easily) actually transferred into the new combination material (generally no it doesnt)? Also does the material still cure and cast in the same fashion or does it generate new problems both in casting and is use?

We do, regularly, use what is called bi-resin; this is metal-impregnated resin that forms a high-temperature resistant part which, after substantial post-cure, produces a very hard non-shrinking resin which can the go into a full-temperature vulcaniser for reproduction of parts (to be cast in metal).. which cant be done with normal resins (they distort under the temperature).. so the result is a temperature hardened resin that will not distort (as easily) under higher temperatures than the resin (on its own) would distort.

Finally: do we really want to play around with plastic-impregnated resin when you can just get a different resin with the exact required properties anyway..and which is cheaper, easier to use and wont confuse your customers as to what it is and how they can use it?

And here we are right back to Smooth-Ons "liquid plastic" - In Europe you would get in trouble (not legally) as we generally regard the two as entirely different..one "Plastic" the other "not" (even though it technically is under a dictionary definition)

Its a bit like " A Dyson is a Hoover" .. it isnt. its a Vacuum Cleaner...but (until dyson) most people called a vacuum-cleaner a "hoover" because most cleaner were made by "Hoover" (capital 'H').
Same thing applies to Styrofoam™ - thats a trade name not the proper name for the material (extruded polystyrene)

So, really, its an issue of nomenclature or even branding.

--------
So..

Injection moulding: plastic model kits... is usually done with Thermoplastics... Usually.


If i remember correctly in the 90s there were around 15,000 different materials that could be use in injection moulding (by sister owns ac company that sells injection moulding machines and her husband owns a company that sells plastic for injection moulding) .. since then there have been something like 500+ new materials added ever single year and the rate is increasing... including thermosets, elastomers and thermoplastics.
So one cannot really say "injection moulding plastic is always a thermoplastic" because that isnt true - you can injection mould resins.

One of the most common though is polystyrene - which is probably the definitive "plastic" for model kits (CD covers etc etc)..and that is a thermoplastic...and it only flows above 100C...and it doesnt like being mixed with resin.

But, heck, there are LOTS of materials out there.

However this comment "And the Plasti-Resin is a mix of normal Model Grade Plastic and Resin to get the properties of both." is tending rather a lot toward bogus status: If you cant re-melt it and re-use then you've lost one of the defining properties of a thermoplastic. If you can re-melt it and use it then it obviously hasnt retained the key property of a thermosetting resin (which cant be melted and re-used as it is a one-way chemical process) . Will it glue with polystyrene cement? Can you thermo-form it? and so-on and so forth...but always bear in mind that one of those conditions is mutually exclusive: you cannot have both therfore is cannot have the properties of both. It is not possible by definition.

It also isnt anywhere near a simple as mixing two different materials and assuming they will then share all the qualities of the two parts taken separately: just look at 2-part urethane resin - both liquid, but goes solid when mixed! This is, however, a most common assumption: "if i mix plastic into my resin it will be shatter resistant" (often the opposite is what actually happens) ..but then just ask Ed for the opposite!

Is that important to you JTM93?

That is up to you.... I, personally, would be wary of making claims about "plastic" if it isn't something that most people would regard AS "Plastic", or that it "has the properties of both" when it cannot... people can get upset by that sort of thing, so perhaps:

"The resultant material has distinct advantages over the normal properties of either part taken independently".
"We are using a resin compound that exhibits some of the advantageous properties of thermoplastics"... you get the idea.

Its all part of the big PR BS like PPs and others Restic/Plastin ... they want the perceived benefits of both and so just create a portmanteau so that consumers will believe something is true... by assumption.

And, hey, I dont really have a problem with them doing that, we all talk our own products up after all, but as the manufacturer you do need to know when you are talking-it-up and when you've just been passing on the up-talk from your supplier...and, for me, more importantly I understand the difference and spot the obvious portmanteau PR bit. I'd make my mind up 'on the truth' only after having some in my hand. (such as having had some of the Trollforge "bouncy resin" from a while back)

Just remember that sooner or later somebody will ask you , directly, for the details... so try to know them enough to answer awkward questions and not to drop yourself in it... and be wary of suppliers "talking stuff up"...they are often just passing on the up-talk they got from their suppliers.

Finally, and i left it to last on purpose.... the term "plastic": yes, it is often confused and "yes" it can mean different thing to different people in different countries.

There is no easy way around that, I, personally, try not to use it to describe resin (even resin with "plastic qualities") because it isnt "Plastic" as that term is generally regarded in Europe. Here if somebody says "Plastic" they mean CD-case, BIC pen, disposable razor, model-kit plastic - they dont mean Resin...generally.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am not saying you are leading people astray and I am not providing you a set of stone tablets from a mountain top!
What I am saying is.... be careful of those tricksie suppliers and their terminology: it can trip you up.

Spend a little bit of time familiarising yourself with the terminology and then use what you are comfortable with, so long as you understand the potential differences then you can explain what you mean by its use on your terms, and nobody can then accuse you of misrepresentation THAT is the bit that is important.

Would that ever happen ... well, i've seen it happen over this exact topic...

25 plastic figures for $150 USD
25 resin figures for $150 USD

or even

25 restic/plasin figures for $150 USD

you see what I mean about how it changes what it says to different people?

Its something to ponder over and with the current state of the economy consumers are getting more knowledgeable all the time, so that they can pick the ideal product for them: access to that knowledge is also FAR easier due to the Internet..they only have to hit Wikipedia to get an easily digestible definition.

Finally remember that your competitors can rip you to shreds if you claim something that isnt true or even something legitimately misunderstood, or even just "slightly misleading". In the age of the Internet Troll the one thing you can guarantee is that somebody will feel obliged to start a multi-fora internet crusade against you because you somehow impinged their on-line-persona.

So its really a form of self-preservation...which forces manufactures to really get to know their product and the materials they use. When starting out it is very easy to rely on what others tell you as "fact" - and they may not be deliberately misleading you - it is often just for ease of understanding.

So, yeah, know your own materials etc and be comfortable with your understanding of them knowing that you can explain what you mean and where the tricky bits are.

Most of us cant do better than that, whilst also having to be experts in painting, casting, moulding, web design, photography, customer services, PR, marketing and every other little thing we always get judged on by "actual experts" in each field.

But, back to Kickstarter... it may be OK to say a resin is a plastic for an American audience but if a European or Brit gets delivered resin models when the kickstarter said plastic - they wont be happy, at all.

So the moral of the story is: Protect yourself from misconceptions.

[surprize]

^Very informative, that's helped me get a handle on what is going on with mini manufacturing.

From my point of view as a consumer I understand and like "hard-plastic", and "resin". Both of them have benefits to the modeller and seemingly to the manufacturer as well. But this "resin-plastic", "restic" whatever they call it seems to only benefit the retailer/manufacturer. As it seems cheaper to make models with it. It's horrible to work with, the mold lines seem worse (than anything else), the fitting of parts seems worse (than metal or resin, shrinkage?), it holds detail worse (than metal or resin), it warps more than metal/hard plastic. I've had it from a few manufacturers now and I've now made a concious decision to carefully check what materials are used for models and I don't buy any made from this hell-material. Life is far to short for cheap, nasty models (which invariably have much nicer looking greens/renders than the finished casts..)

In terms of my personal value system I expect and am willing to pay up to £1 per 28mm hard plastic mini (but I'd expect nearer 50p), I'd be willing to pay £4-5 per resin or metal mini if its a squad type thing (replicated casts) and maybe £15+ for a character. For "restic" I value them as 50p a model max.

[kidterminal]

Thank you very much for that explanation Jed. I will point out that here in the US "plastic" to gamers here is model kit style plastic. There is also an bendy plastic (sometimes known as Airfix plastic) used in board game pieces and toys, it doesn't hold paint as well. So it's not popular for miniatures.


Everyone please bare in mind that this is Steve's topic to promote his models. We can open a resin or casting topic in "tools".

[daviddasilva]

Was referring to the Middle Mech... but just nods and smiles.

sorry but for the last month I haven't been able to see miniatures, just terrain related stuff =)

[Mob of Blondes]

Filled resins are now called bi-resins? Hohoho. The mess only grows.

I always try to go by the manufacturer info doc, or the MSDS and some guessing. But with final products, that is hard or not avaliable at all, so it's all about rumors.

"by sister owns ac company that" Uh? By what? Are there also dc companies? Sorry but my heart hurts after trying to understand that.

When people say they have issues with a material, I always wonder if they are using the right tools at all. When started modelling, sanding or cutting was a nightmare; for next go at it I started to pick better tools or improve the process (oiling/cooling is a typical example), as well as having more patience. Restic falls to diamond files like everyone else, and rubbing against itself or with acetone is also a good final polish step.

Yeah, probably move all these posts to a new thread: material ruminations.

[JTM93]

This is a 5 Part(?) Resin that he worked with a large green chemical company to design. It allows him to make larger.

He = A Prototype Contractor/Custom Fabricator here in Springfield who occasionally shows up to our RPG Nights. In fact he is the one who makes our Molds from Hirst Art Blocks so we can cast more easier.

Hmm... Seems we misunderstood him. The 15 USD is the lowest Retail Price we could sell them for and break even. It will cost 25 to 50 USD for the Molds we would need.

The only reason why he is giving us a price break is simply the fact that we have known him for 5 Years now and he helped us playtest the system and loves it.

I should note that this kit is ~90 Pieces. (We kept losing count after the 87th...)

[Antenociti]

When people say they have issues with a material, I always wonder if they are using the right tools at all.

yeah that's a good example of the issues: you go on a forum and the title of the post says
"Having trouble gluing plastic figures - please help"
"What sort of plastic is it?
"Its blue"

and you go.....

JTM93 - sent you a PM

[JTM93]

Sent you a PM. It might explain a bit on it.

[Section9]

When people say they have issues with a material, I always wonder if they are using the right tools at all.

yeah that's a good example of the issues: you go on a forum and the title of the post says
"Having trouble gluing plastic figures - please help"
"What sort of plastic is it?
"Its blue"

and you go.....

JTM93 - sent you a PM

Well, I haven't found anything in common modeling use that methylene chloride won't bond, but that's not easy stuff to find some days. And you REALLY need a respirator and gloves when using it (and ideally a spray booth with VOC filters). Nasty, nasty stuff if you don't use proper protective equipment.

Litko's favorite, Craftix #33 is a mix of methylene chloride and MEK (another winner in the "will kill you" collection), plus some weird thickeners. Used that successfully with whatever funky stuff McVeys used for their Sedition Wars minis, but it's too thick for my preference. I prefer thin glues, so I don't use as much of the stuff.

Looks like Plastruct Plastic Weld (aka PPC-2) is the stuff I want. Yet another mix of about 90% methylene chloride and 10% Methy Ethyl Ketone, too.

Read the Material Safety Data Sheet, kids, this stuff WILL FUCKING KILL YOU. ahem, please pardon the profanity, but this is literally life and death important.

I developed a latex sensitivity due to using latex gloves when working with MEK (this was really before you could find any other type of disposable gloves, back 1998-2000). If I wear a latex glove, my hands break out in hives in minutes. I'm not looking forward to finding out when it's progressed to full-blown anaphylactic shock, like what happened to one of my co-workers at the company.

Use stuff with caution and respect, you will last a long time. Fail to respect this stuff and you won't live long enough to warn others.

[Lampyridae]

Well said, S9. We play with a lot of toxic shit with our minis - always read those MSDSs. Preferably do anything involving chemicals in the open air with goggles and run the f*ck away as soon as you're done. You never know what happens when you mix superglue with some other substance.

[atropos907]

MEK and Dichlore Methane(Methylene chloride).... Yea do NOT use that stuff except in extremely well ventilated areas. And if you have NY CHOICE just dont use them. I use them at work, a lot. While not as bad as HydroFlouric, Methylene chloride will dissolve through many things you think are barriers. About the only saving grace is the rate at which it evaporates at body temperature, but this means you will breath in a lot just by exposing it to air. Still... do not breathe it at all!

I do a lot of airbrushing and I use acrylics so I only have to deal with particulates and not VOC's. Even still, always be paranoid, Lest you regret it hacking your lung out in 10-30 years. or dead tomorrow if you were overly stupid.

[valthonis]

When people say they have issues with a material, I always wonder if they are using the right tools at all.

yeah that's a good example of the issues: you go on a forum and the title of the post says
"Having trouble gluing plastic figures - please help"
"What sort of plastic is it?
"Its blue"

and you go.....

JTM93 - sent you a PM

Well, I haven't found anything in common modeling use that methylene chloride won't bond, but that's not easy stuff to find some days. And you REALLY need a respirator and gloves when using it (and ideally a spray booth with VOC filters). Nasty, nasty stuff if you don't use proper protective equipment.

Litko's favorite, Craftix #33 is a mix of methylene chloride and MEK (another winner in the "will kill you" collection), plus some weird thickeners. Used that successfully with whatever funky stuff McVeys used for their Sedition Wars minis, but it's too thick for my preference. I prefer thin glues, so I don't use as much of the stuff.

Looks like Plastruct Plastic Weld (aka PPC-2) is the stuff I want. Yet another mix of about 90% methylene chloride and 10% Methy Ethyl Ketone, too.

Read the Material Safety Data Sheet, kids, this stuff WILL FUCKING KILL YOU. ahem, please pardon the profanity, but this is literally life and death important.

I developed a latex sensitivity due to using latex gloves when working with MEK (this was really before you could find any other type of disposable gloves, back 1998-2000). If I wear a latex glove, my hands break out in hives in minutes. I'm not looking forward to finding out when it's progressed to full-blown anaphylactic shock, like what happened to one of my co-workers at the company.

Use stuff with caution and respect, you will last a long time. Fail to respect this stuff and you won't live long enough to warn others.

I have some of that Craftics #33, haven't opened it yet (bought it for some acrylic stands/bases for another game), but it had a menacing vibe about it.
You know it can't be safe if they link the MSDS right on the product page...

https://www.litko.net/content/Craftics33_MSDS.pdf

[atropos907]

Ok kickstarter supporters should have received an offer to buy some of the larger vehicles. Ive filled a few orders so now Im opening this up. Supplies are limited, but frankly I doubt Ill sell out anytime soon. Only the models in bold are available. The rest are being sent out this week for production molding with the assistance of funds recovered from the first round of sales. Shipping not included. If your intersted PM me with what you would like and your mailing address and paypal billing email address. Ill write back with an expected timeline (esp if I have to cast some of it up) and I wont invoice you until Im ready to ship.

US Domestic Addons
Qty 1 2 3 4 5
--Stroller 10 18 26 35 40
Pod car 15 29 39 52 60
--Crotch Rocket 15 29 39 52 60
--Grid Commuter 17 33 45 60 70
--Monowheel 17 34 45 60 70
Mustang 17 33 45 60 70
Executive Hover 18 35 -10% hand cast by me.
--SwitchBlade 22 41 54 71 80
FUV 23 45 60 80 96
Utility Truck 32 62 90 120 145 - 10% for low quality wheels or pads
Cargo Hover Vehicle 35 69 100 133 164
Armored train 63 121 172 x x

[kidterminal]

This is great news!

[surprize]

Ok kickstarter supporters should have received an offer to buy some of the larger vehicles. Ive filled a few orders so now Im opening this up. Supplies are limited, but frankly I doubt Ill sell out anytime soon. Only the models in bold are available. The rest are being sent out this week for production molding with the assistance of funds recovered from the first round of sales. Shipping not included. If your intersted PM me with what you would like and your mailing address and paypal billing email address. Ill write back with an expected timeline (esp if I have to cast some of it up) and I wont invoice you until Im ready to ship.

US Domestic Addons
Qty 1 2 3 4 5
--Stroller 10 18 26 35 40
Pod car 15 29 39 52 60
--Crotch Rocket 15 29 39 52 60
--Grid Commuter 17 33 45 60 70
--Monowheel 17 34 45 60 70
Mustang 17 33 45 60 70
Executive Hover 18 35 -10% hand cast by me.
--SwitchBlade 22 41 54 71 80
FUV 23 45 60 80 96
Utility Truck 32 62 90 120 145 - 10% for low quality wheels or pads
Cargo Hover Vehicle 35 69 100 133 164
Armored train 63 121 172 x x

Just being dense- the numbers; these are the price in US$ for 1 car, 2 cars, etc. Then plus shipping?

[atropos907]

correct
ex. 2 pod cars for 29
3 fuv's for 60
then plus shipping which Ill figure out based on volume. I generally try to fit everything in a small flat rate if I can. else I offer to just put it in the next size up that works, or try to do custom first class to avoid the 5 dollar price jumps of domestic flat rate.

[Section9]

Just got my box in the mail. Now to strip the mold release off and figure out how many control fins I want to add to the Mustangs.

[atropos907]

Use the 2 weapon ports on the top aft. Have the control fins angled inward.. That sounds like fun.
Hopefully these will sell well enough to warrant doing a run of boosters for the mustangs. I liked how the boosters slide into the sides of the vehicle.

[kidterminal]

Use the 2 weapon ports on the top aft. Have the control fins angled inward.. That sounds like fun.
Hopefully these will sell well enough to warrant doing a run of boosters for the mustangs. I liked how the boosters slide into the sides of the vehicle.

Can you post pictures of that?

[atropos907]

something like this?


The nacelles or boosters are shown with this model, but havent been molded.

[Section9]

Looking at the Mustangs, I think I'm going to reshape the canopy a bit, bulk up the top to match the ridgeline on the model.

And I was actually thinking of putting the control fins down where the 'wheels' would be, but the fins up top do look good.