Bought a starter set and a few other models and tried playing the game a while back - few years - , everything just seemed to be overly complicated so i gave it up after "attempting" to play half a dozen or so games.
After seeing Icestorm and a couple of friends getting into it, i bought a starter and a few models - again - , its either me or the way the game plays i just cant see it, i would love to get into the game as i love the background and the models but i just cant seem to get it - tried to play the first half dozen missions from icestorm and just bumbled through badly, losing every game badly and im on the verge of ebaying what i have.
How have you guys learned the game, Icestorm, straight up box fight and how difficult was it for you, im sure it cant be that hard, can it?
Trying again
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- HaqqGhulam
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- Joined: April 30th, 2015, 10:51 pm
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Hi there. As one good book kindly displayed on its cover - Don't Panic.
Best way to learn is to take four basic models - basic infantry, maybe some MI without powerful skills - and play a few games on 2x2 table just to get the basics right.
Then play a few 100 pts games. No scenarios. No camo or AD for now. Learn how the game flows, learn to read the distance. Learn three basic rules - keep in best range for your weapons, stay in cover, deny enemy cover. Only then move to bigger games, 50 pts a time.
Was there anything in particular that was causing you problems? Infinity is complicated, best to learn it in small steps.
Best way to learn is to take four basic models - basic infantry, maybe some MI without powerful skills - and play a few games on 2x2 table just to get the basics right.
Then play a few 100 pts games. No scenarios. No camo or AD for now. Learn how the game flows, learn to read the distance. Learn three basic rules - keep in best range for your weapons, stay in cover, deny enemy cover. Only then move to bigger games, 50 pts a time.
Was there anything in particular that was causing you problems? Infinity is complicated, best to learn it in small steps.
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but shouldn't we just take the warning labels off everything and let the problem deal with itself?
I got into infinity after wanting a replacement from 40k back in the 4th ed days as I was already tiring of the escalation.
I'd played games with opportunity reaction fire aspects before - so this wasn't new.
I'd played games with different mechanics to the one GW favours, also.
A good teacher can get you into the minutiae of the game faster than being self-taught, though. I read the rules several times, but PLAYING my first game against someone who had been playing for a few years, showed me far more effectively (and that was using 2nd ed rules. My "teacher" started with 1st ed, and it was a lot more confusing).
Start small. My first few games were "starter box" (about 120ish points). Until we learned the rules properly.
Then we graduated to 200 and then 300. I've played 400, but that level holds no interest for me. Much like playing 3000pts+ for certain other games.
I'd played games with opportunity reaction fire aspects before - so this wasn't new.
I'd played games with different mechanics to the one GW favours, also.
A good teacher can get you into the minutiae of the game faster than being self-taught, though. I read the rules several times, but PLAYING my first game against someone who had been playing for a few years, showed me far more effectively (and that was using 2nd ed rules. My "teacher" started with 1st ed, and it was a lot more confusing).
Start small. My first few games were "starter box" (about 120ish points). Until we learned the rules properly.
Then we graduated to 200 and then 300. I've played 400, but that level holds no interest for me. Much like playing 3000pts+ for certain other games.
Losing is part of Infinity. It will happen to you a lot. Many of these losses can be attributed to tactical decisions you made during the game, which means reflecting on what you did with you opponent after the game might help you a lot. 
I have had loads of games that literally came down to a 'I/you should have done A instead of B at that time in the game'.
I can only second the other people in this thread. Take it slow. Don't go off to eBay because you're losing your first couple of intro games. Take a look at every game and learn from past mistakes.
You can also use Toadchild's calculator tool to see if you have a good grasp of your chances. I've seen people having trouble with that before, always rolling on less favourable % than they thought.
Remember: we've all been here.
it's a matter of following through.
I have had loads of games that literally came down to a 'I/you should have done A instead of B at that time in the game'.
I can only second the other people in this thread. Take it slow. Don't go off to eBay because you're losing your first couple of intro games. Take a look at every game and learn from past mistakes.
You can also use Toadchild's calculator tool to see if you have a good grasp of your chances. I've seen people having trouble with that before, always rolling on less favourable % than they thought.
Remember: we've all been here.
it's a matter of following through.
Sorry to hear the woes, HaqqGhulam.
Just so we're clear, are you having trouble with the complexity of the game rules now or is it that you're not getting to grips with how to play effectively?
I'm no expert myself and am more of a painter than a player (I think I should put that on a t-shirt ) but found that Infinity needs a different mindset from most other tabletop skirmish games. A cool thing a friend pointed out to me that resonated well, and makes Infinity such an enjoyable experience, is that on your turn you are presented with a tactical puzzle and your models are the toolkit you have to solve that puzzle - remembering that each of those tools can be used as many times as needed (and orders allow).
So for example, your opponent has blocked off your approach to an objective with a total reaction remote. You might move over a troop to lay down smoke so models can get past the remote's firelane, or bring in a MSV troop into that smoke to ambush it, or you might bring over a sniper to take it down in a favourable face-to-face exchange at long range.
A lot of the fun for me is setting up chains to solve those puzzles in order-efficient ways, while enjoying how it plays out in such a cinematic way.
Just so we're clear, are you having trouble with the complexity of the game rules now or is it that you're not getting to grips with how to play effectively?
I'm no expert myself and am more of a painter than a player (I think I should put that on a t-shirt
) but found that Infinity needs a different mindset from most other tabletop skirmish games. A cool thing a friend pointed out to me that resonated well, and makes Infinity such an enjoyable experience, is that on your turn you are presented with a tactical puzzle and your models are the toolkit you have to solve that puzzle - remembering that each of those tools can be used as many times as needed (and orders allow).So for example, your opponent has blocked off your approach to an objective with a total reaction remote. You might move over a troop to lay down smoke so models can get past the remote's firelane, or bring in a MSV troop into that smoke to ambush it, or you might bring over a sniper to take it down in a favourable face-to-face exchange at long range.
A lot of the fun for me is setting up chains to solve those puzzles in order-efficient ways, while enjoying how it plays out in such a cinematic way.
When we meet up again, will try and do 2vs2 models to try and learn again (problem is worse as we only get to play once a month/6 weeks - will forget things lol) ,
To me it seems less intuitive than other games ive played like DZC for example, that i picked up incredibly easy, same as Malifaux, Infinity seems magnitudes of complexity to me atm compared to many others.
I dont mind losing but its like im not learing anything, i know how to use cover,line of sight, using models to cover each others advance from other games
Nearest club is over an hour away - who may do it (also have to pay monthly even if you dont go some weeks /sigh) so it may be an option to find a person to help there.
As i said we have been playing through the Icestorm campaign but it seems like Infinity is not "triggering" like other games ive learnt
Played a lot of games and this is probably the most confusing/annoying for me - played X-Wing, 40k (long time ago), WHFB, various specialist GW games, Helldorado, Eden, Dropzone Commander, Malifaux
Who do you contact about a missing part in a box set, i have a backpack that is missing from the Ghulam infantry box for the sniper
Thanks for the replies
To me it seems less intuitive than other games ive played like DZC for example, that i picked up incredibly easy, same as Malifaux, Infinity seems magnitudes of complexity to me atm compared to many others.
I dont mind losing but its like im not learing anything, i know how to use cover,line of sight, using models to cover each others advance from other games
Nearest club is over an hour away - who may do it (also have to pay monthly even if you dont go some weeks /sigh) so it may be an option to find a person to help there.
As i said we have been playing through the Icestorm campaign but it seems like Infinity is not "triggering" like other games ive learnt
Played a lot of games and this is probably the most confusing/annoying for me - played X-Wing, 40k (long time ago), WHFB, various specialist GW games, Helldorado, Eden, Dropzone Commander, Malifaux
Who do you contact about a missing part in a box set, i have a backpack that is missing from the Ghulam infantry box for the sniper
Thanks for the replies
- HaqqGhulam
- Posts: 2
- Joined: April 30th, 2015, 10:51 pm
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Firstly: I would suggest you forget everything that any other war game has taught you about strategy and tactics. With the way Infinity plays, it is so vastly different from any war game you've played that these mindsets and ideas will just cloud your growth in Infinity.
Important things to remember when looking to improve:
-Analyze constantly. The board state, the order you just finished, your strategy, your tactics. This isn't a game where your strategy changes maybe once or twice during the course of the game. It's a game where your strategy is thrown out of the window by the third order and then again in the next two. You have to be able to adapt to the ever changing battlefield.
-Avoid unfavorable situations. I know this might seem "obvious", but the dice mechanic isn't as straight forward as you'd expect. As mentioned above, ToadChild has a dice calculator that you can play with to try to get a better idea of your true odds of succeeding a given action.
-Never settle. Too often I see players think they're losing because models are dropping left and right and the player just sends models out in an attempt to even the model count by shooting the opponent's models. They'll peter out at the end of the game because they think there is nothing they can do to win. Which brings me to...
-There is always hope. The toughest model in the game can go down to the weakest weapon in the 'Sphere. I've seen Achilles get headshot by a Keisotsu's Pistol, never to stand up again. I've seen a Jotum crumble at the terror (lol) of a weaponless-REM's fist.
-Remember the mission. No matter how awesome you are at clearing swathes of the battlefield, it all amounts to nothing if you don't score objective points. This is more of an ITS thing, but it's important to note for casual games, too.
-Take it slow. There's a lot to learn. Nuances, skills, tactics, models, equipment... It can be overwhelming. Introduce things in small bites to make the mental strain more bearable. Whatever you need. This amount is difficult to describe as it's variant from person to person.
-Ask for help. Not just here on the forums, but also your opponent! If you're having trouble and you're only playing a casual game, just ask your opponent: "What do you think I should do here? I'm at a loss of ideas.". More often than not, your opponent can give you an, at least general, idea. Though, I wouldn't expect this too often during a more competitive setting (though I still see a lot of this happen during major events).
-Have fun. It's cliche, but this is important. I'm going to brag, but I'm ranked #2 in the USA and #3 in the world at the moment for ITS 2015. I didn't get here by min-maxing, denying information to my opponent, or getting super super emotionally invested in the game. I got here by playing what I thought was fun and cool. 6 bikes will all fall dead at the drop of a hat and take up a third or more of my list, but that's fine. It's fun as all hell. #1 in the US of last year, Dexter Schiller, follows a similar mentality, from what I've gathered. He's a super fun guy and is just looking for ways to troll people and have a laugh.
I hope that was helpful? Best of luck!
Important things to remember when looking to improve:
-Analyze constantly. The board state, the order you just finished, your strategy, your tactics. This isn't a game where your strategy changes maybe once or twice during the course of the game. It's a game where your strategy is thrown out of the window by the third order and then again in the next two. You have to be able to adapt to the ever changing battlefield.
-Avoid unfavorable situations. I know this might seem "obvious", but the dice mechanic isn't as straight forward as you'd expect. As mentioned above, ToadChild has a dice calculator that you can play with to try to get a better idea of your true odds of succeeding a given action.
-Never settle. Too often I see players think they're losing because models are dropping left and right and the player just sends models out in an attempt to even the model count by shooting the opponent's models. They'll peter out at the end of the game because they think there is nothing they can do to win. Which brings me to...
-There is always hope. The toughest model in the game can go down to the weakest weapon in the 'Sphere. I've seen Achilles get headshot by a Keisotsu's Pistol, never to stand up again. I've seen a Jotum crumble at the terror (lol) of a weaponless-REM's fist.
-Remember the mission. No matter how awesome you are at clearing swathes of the battlefield, it all amounts to nothing if you don't score objective points. This is more of an ITS thing, but it's important to note for casual games, too.
-Take it slow. There's a lot to learn. Nuances, skills, tactics, models, equipment... It can be overwhelming. Introduce things in small bites to make the mental strain more bearable. Whatever you need. This amount is difficult to describe as it's variant from person to person.
-Ask for help. Not just here on the forums, but also your opponent! If you're having trouble and you're only playing a casual game, just ask your opponent: "What do you think I should do here? I'm at a loss of ideas.". More often than not, your opponent can give you an, at least general, idea. Though, I wouldn't expect this too often during a more competitive setting (though I still see a lot of this happen during major events).
-Have fun. It's cliche, but this is important. I'm going to brag, but I'm ranked #2 in the USA and #3 in the world at the moment for ITS 2015. I didn't get here by min-maxing, denying information to my opponent, or getting super super emotionally invested in the game. I got here by playing what I thought was fun and cool. 6 bikes will all fall dead at the drop of a hat and take up a third or more of my list, but that's fine. It's fun as all hell. #1 in the US of last year, Dexter Schiller, follows a similar mentality, from what I've gathered. He's a super fun guy and is just looking for ways to troll people and have a laugh.
I hope that was helpful? Best of luck!
Last edited by Claudius Sol on May 1st, 2015, 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Formatting to make it not a wall of text.
Reason: Formatting to make it not a wall of text.
Interested in painting?
Want to share and learn?
You should check out the Data-Sphere Painting Campaign!
See the Miniatures sub-forum for more information!
Want to share and learn?
You should check out the Data-Sphere Painting Campaign!
See the Miniatures sub-forum for more information!
-
Claudius Sol - Posts: 1927
- Joined: July 14th, 2014, 4:36 pm
- Location: Summerville, South Carolina
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As the other guys have said, start small and simple. I think it definitely helps if you have someone who knows the game already and can show you how to play.
I didn't have this, but I did have a friend who wanted to start at the same time. We both worked through the rules together, it's amazing how much it helps if you can just discuss the rules and play with each other. If you don't have that, I would recommend finding a club that plays or even a tournament. Once you see the rules in action they should 'snap' into place. You'll have an "oh, right!" moment when you see the active and re-active turns in action, I've seen it happen with a number of people.
I don't think there is anything intrinsically difficult about the Infinity rules. If you have played and learned all those games it's not like you are coming from a background of only playing Yu-Gi-Oh cards or something! Although, I will say DZC is easy to learn cause the rules are so simple as to make the game pretty dull, at least that's how I found it!
I didn't have this, but I did have a friend who wanted to start at the same time. We both worked through the rules together, it's amazing how much it helps if you can just discuss the rules and play with each other. If you don't have that, I would recommend finding a club that plays or even a tournament. Once you see the rules in action they should 'snap' into place. You'll have an "oh, right!" moment when you see the active and re-active turns in action, I've seen it happen with a number of people.
I don't think there is anything intrinsically difficult about the Infinity rules. If you have played and learned all those games it's not like you are coming from a background of only playing Yu-Gi-Oh cards or something!
Although, I will say DZC is easy to learn cause the rules are so simple as to make the game pretty dull, at least that's how I found it! 
As someone who is also in the process of learning this game, I can see where you're coming from.
Infinity has a lot of rules, on a similar scale to what Malifaux 1st edition had in terms of the potential for individual models to have so many different rules. Unfortunately, a lot of those rules are not super quick to find, which can really bog down the flow of the game. This is not something that really bothers me, but I know would bother some people. I think it would make it a lot easier if there was a Warmachine like card system available for non-profile dependant special rules to make referencing them a lot easier.
For example for Odalisques, you could have the rules for iKhol, NWI, Sixth Sense and 360 Visor all on the card to make referencing those rules very easy when playing that model.
The other tricky part for me has been working out the sequencing of how all the AROs work in with the active players turn in terms of timing, and what that means when you're trying to play around the AROs in the active turn.
The other trick is that the mismatches you are trying to create in this game work a little differently. With most other miniature games having a lot more close combat involved, a lot of the time its a case of trying get your close combat dudes into their shooty dudes, or shooting their close combat dudes before they get your shooty dudes etc. Similarly you'll try and get your heavily armoured dudes against their peashooters and your lots of dudes vs their low number of shots heavy weapons.
In Infinity though those mismatches you;re trying to create tend to revolve around manipulating the range of engagement. Can you deliver your shorter ranged dudes into an effective range without getting picked off by the long range dudes first. The being able to use a model multiple times really allows you to brutalise people with the mismatches you do create as well.
Our group has almost had an arms race where when we started out, the high range guns such as sniper rifles and HMGs were really dominating (and not just due to terrain layout), but over time we keep finding new tricks to get other dudes in range (AD, Impersonation, Smoke etc), and as we find each new one of those, we start to develop counters and keep learning the game almost one tactical wrinkle at a time.
You can also have rules terminology from other games acting as a barrier to learning this one. I know a couple of the other guys in our group have been using Warmachine terminologies for this game that just aren't applicable.
For me, I only played one 150pt game, then all my games since then have been at the 200pt level, but we basically stop any time a rule comes up that one of us isn't sure about to really look in depth at how that rule works, so our games are generally taking 2-3 hours at this point. I've also then been coming into this forum and asking questions about stuff I'm still not quite sure on, and have had a few things clarified (thank Errhile!).
Infinity has a lot of rules, on a similar scale to what Malifaux 1st edition had in terms of the potential for individual models to have so many different rules. Unfortunately, a lot of those rules are not super quick to find, which can really bog down the flow of the game. This is not something that really bothers me, but I know would bother some people. I think it would make it a lot easier if there was a Warmachine like card system available for non-profile dependant special rules to make referencing them a lot easier.
For example for Odalisques, you could have the rules for iKhol, NWI, Sixth Sense and 360 Visor all on the card to make referencing those rules very easy when playing that model.
The other tricky part for me has been working out the sequencing of how all the AROs work in with the active players turn in terms of timing, and what that means when you're trying to play around the AROs in the active turn.
The other trick is that the mismatches you are trying to create in this game work a little differently. With most other miniature games having a lot more close combat involved, a lot of the time its a case of trying get your close combat dudes into their shooty dudes, or shooting their close combat dudes before they get your shooty dudes etc. Similarly you'll try and get your heavily armoured dudes against their peashooters and your lots of dudes vs their low number of shots heavy weapons.
In Infinity though those mismatches you;re trying to create tend to revolve around manipulating the range of engagement. Can you deliver your shorter ranged dudes into an effective range without getting picked off by the long range dudes first. The being able to use a model multiple times really allows you to brutalise people with the mismatches you do create as well.
Our group has almost had an arms race where when we started out, the high range guns such as sniper rifles and HMGs were really dominating (and not just due to terrain layout), but over time we keep finding new tricks to get other dudes in range (AD, Impersonation, Smoke etc), and as we find each new one of those, we start to develop counters and keep learning the game almost one tactical wrinkle at a time.
You can also have rules terminology from other games acting as a barrier to learning this one. I know a couple of the other guys in our group have been using Warmachine terminologies for this game that just aren't applicable.
For me, I only played one 150pt game, then all my games since then have been at the 200pt level, but we basically stop any time a rule comes up that one of us isn't sure about to really look in depth at how that rule works, so our games are generally taking 2-3 hours at this point. I've also then been coming into this forum and asking questions about stuff I'm still not quite sure on, and have had a few things clarified (thank Errhile!).
chunky04 wrote:Our group has almost had an arms race where when we started out, the high range guns such as sniper rifles and HMGs were really dominating (and not just due to terrain layout), but over time we keep finding new tricks to get other dudes in range (AD, Impersonation, Smoke etc), and as we find each new one of those, we start to develop counters and keep learning the game almost one tactical wrinkle at a time.
Haha yes right, 'arms race' is a great way to put it. I had a similar thing when I first started playing. A friend of mine used a drop trooper that can down and HMG'ed all of my guys in the back (lesson one: be careful of facing!), I tried to do the same thing to him in the next game but he had 'escalated' - his hacker iced the transport aircraft and my poor Ragik landed directly in front of his Marut TAG
That's on the great things about Infinity for me, the different types of attacks you can use, and the different ways to counter them. It's a really, really tactical game and you need to have your thinking hat on. Quite often I'm actually exhausted after I have had a long game!
I'm not saying you have this problem, but at least one other player and myself took a long time to get used to the "everyone moves in my movement phase" mentality. Orders are a precious and limited resource and you should strive to use each order token to get the absolute most out of it. Even if it means a few guys get left "out of the action".
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