Hello from the UK + nooby OPERATION ICESTORM questions :S

[TSINI]

Hi guys, I briefly dabbled in infinity around 2 years ago but had only grasped the very basics before moving to a new area. With Operation Icestorm I've rebooted and am looking forward to getting into INFINITY again.

I have some nooby questions from trying out my first operation Icestorm games last night. (we sort of skipped a few steps and tried to play the mission 3 forces, so we had 3 basics, a lieutenant and a specialist (Spektr and Akalis) we used the OI stats which I noticed give everyone a basic Combi rifle and ignore some special rules.

How oversimplified is OI?
As I read it so far, your first short action can only be a discover or move.

I get that a move shoot is essentially one combined action, but is a shoot+dodge possible? Say if you are being ARO'd by two opponents, could you shoot 1 and dodge the other and not move? (I understand you could split your fire but just for the purpose of this question) or Shoot + Shoot for that matter?

DODGE
We read the Dodge rule as: if you make a dodge PH test you ignore a whole BS attack. which I've since read is wrong and it's simply a single dice in a normal opposed roll. So I really can't see the benefit over just shooting back, as shooting results can cancel each other out too as well as the potential to wound or kill shot. Am I missing something?

Why stand in sight of your opponent?
If you can move up to 2" from fully behind a wall, up to the corner to "peak out" and back again, whilst you fire from cover and they ARO at you in cover, why would you ever not do that? It denies the opponent the chance to shoot you in their turn?


Cheers for any pointers guys, I can't wait until 3rd edition is released so I can actually read the rules properly and not try to piece together a half written starter set rules and an older edition.

[Mistake Not]

1: Short Movement Skills like Discover and Move are different from Short Skills like Shoot and Dodge. You can combine Short Movement Skills with a Short Skill or another Movement Skill, but you can't combine two Short Skills. There's a decent list on the wiki, and I'm sure that'll be updated, it shouldn't take long to know what is and isn't possible since it's always the same grid.

2: You mostly just dodge when it's a better target number than shooting back. If you're shooting out of good ranges into cover you might be looking at a target number below your PH, so at that point a Dodge ARO would give you a larger chance to avoid being shot. It also gives a bit of movement as an ARO, which can save you even more, like by ducking behind a wall.

3: To ARO. You can duck behind the corner and that's great and safe, but then the enemy model can just stroll up to the corner and flank you. Unopposed, because you can't see them coming.. but if you were still standing at the corner they would have to leave cover to approach while you remained in cover.. or it'd just be a lengthy shootout. Both of those benefit you in your Reactive turn, the fewer productive orders your opponent gets to spend the better.


Hope this helps.

[MarcoSkoll]

How oversimplified is OI?
As I read it so far, your first short action can only be a discover or move.

We don't know exactly, as the full 3rd edition ruleset is not available. However, this is... largely correct.

In 2nd edition, skills are divided into three sets: Short Move Skills (Standard Movement, Jumping, Climbing, Prone, Discover, etc), Short Skills (Shoot, Dodge, Doctor, etc), and Long Skills (Cautious Move, Speculative Fire, etc).

Orders can be either: One of any of the above (you're not obliged to spend two skills in an order), two Short Move Skills, or one Short Move Skill + one Short Skill.
These can be in any sequence, although it would be very rare to choose to declare "Shoot+Move" rather than "Move+Shoot" (as the former forces AROs and then lets you choose who to shoot, the other forces you to choose before you know what the AROs are).

We know that Jumping and Climbing are moving to Long Skills in N3, and there's a rumour that some things that are currently Short Skills may become Short Move Skills (although a dubious rumour at that).

In any case, unless there is a large change in the rules, Shoot+Shoot and Shoot+Dodge are not permissible.

DODGE
We read the Dodge rule as: if you make a dodge PH test you ignore a whole BS attack. which I've since read is wrong and it's simply a single dice in a normal opposed roll.

In an FtF, you oppose all dice in that roll-off. If someone is shooting at you with Burst 3, the Dodge can cancel all three of those dice (assuming, of course, it beats them all).

The advantages of dodging are largely if your penalties in shooting are too high (such as shooting back at a TO camouflage model in cover, particularly if it's also using Surprise Shot), or if you can get into better cover and improve your survivability that way.

Why stand in sight of your opponent?
If you can move up to 2" from fully behind a wall, up to the corner to "peak out" and back again, whilst you fire from cover and they ARO at you in cover, why would you ever not do that? It denies the opponent the chance to shoot you in their turn?

Because it also denies you the chance to shoot the opponent in their turn.

ARO is not just a last ditch measure, it's a tactic and dynamic in its own right. Icestorm is pretty basic about what the objectives are, but in tournament play, the ability to limit your opponent's movement and eliminate his models while he's trying to achieve objectives is vital.

In most ITS scenarios, if you deploy completely out of line of sight and without decent AROs set up, you will flat out lose. If the player going second were to try that in Supplies, for example, most of the supply boxes would be at the back of his opponent's deployment zone by the end of Player 1's first turn.

Even if you lose a model, every order your opponent has to use dealing with the AROs you've got set up is an order they're not using to complete objectives... and that's HUGE, even before you consider that they could lose their model instead. A well positioned reactive model can utterly turn the course of a game, and that's before you even get into the special circumstances that give a unit more than one shot in ARO (Total Reaction, Neurocinetics, Link Teams, Suppression Fire).

[Claudius Sol]

Hey there, TSINI!

Welcome back! Mistake Not has the right of it, mostly.

I'd just like to add a bit regarding the necessity of dodging. Icestorm doesn't mention it (as it can get confusing), but there is a short movement skill for going prone and standing up. This can be done when dodging and can get some of your more vital pieces out of the line of fire. Depending on things like range, height, and terrain, dodging could mean the difference between your opponent getting 3 or more chances against a key model or couple chances with a lot of orders spent in between in order to get Line of Fire (LoF) again.

[TSINI]

All of these responses are fantastic! Understanding that there are types of short skills that cannot be repeated mostly answers a lot of questions I have about the rules, so that is a big help

I'll see if I can get it all straight in my head tonight sat down with the rules and some models.

I think I'm my own worst enemy here because I started with the full 2nd ed rules a while ago and the starter set leaves a lot of gaps that I'm trying to fill in. I couldn't even find any mention of the guts roll in there (maybe I just missed it) but that seems pretty vital to the game mechanics,

Thanks for the help guys, I'll do some serious rule reading tonight and see what I can get out of the 2nd ed rules