Lethal Weapons/Police Units

[vorthain]

I don't know this for certain, but I'm fairly sure the majority of PanO has Cubes, and probably a lot of Yu Jing and Nomads do too (they are more limited in Haqq if memory serves), so 'lethal' ammo might be a choice. E/M is obviously out, but Stun and Flash work.

I think GdA and Harlekin are right on the money though.

[ToadChild]

Off the cuff, it's something like:

PanO - 100%
Aleph - 100%
Yu Jing - 90%
Nomads - 60% (Corregidor especially has few Cubes)
Haqq - 50%
Ariadna - 0%

And aliens:
Combined - 100%
Tohaa - 95% (Everything except Chaksa)

I'm hoping that the N3 Ragik loses its Cube. It never made sense that it was the only Hassassin to possess one.

[macfergusson]

Off the cuff, it's something like:

PanO - 100%
Aleph - 100%
Yu Jing - 90%
Nomads - 60% (Corregidor especially has few Cubes)
Haqq - 50%
Ariadna - 0%

And aliens:
Combined - 100%
Tohaa - 95% (Everything except Chaksa)

I'm hoping that the N3 Ragik loses its Cube. It never made sense that it was the only Hassassin to possess one.

Wallace. And Hungries.

[ToadChild]

I'm willing to consider those singular exceptions as rounding errors. If I wanted to do this right I'd grab my unit stat data and actually calculate it out. Of course, then I'd have to figure out how to handle REMs or special cases that would not normally be included when people talk about "if units have Cubes".

[macfergusson]

I'm willing to consider those singular exceptions as rounding errors. If I wanted to do this right I'd grab my unit stat data and actually calculate it out. Of course, then I'd have to figure out how to handle REMs or special cases that would not normally be included when people talk about "if units have Cubes".

heh... Fair 'nuff.

[Section9]

Also of note in modern times, it is technically against the Geneva Convention to shoot someone with an Anti-Material Rifle(.50 cal+); these weapons are only to be used against enemy equipment/material. However, a loop hole in this is, a soldier CAN aim at the enemy's gear, such as his Helmet, Radio, Uniform, Weapon, etc. Basically, its all in the wording of the laws.

You're allowed to aim at his... uniform?

I'm in Zurich right now. I may have to take a day trip to Geneva just to yell at it. Goddamn, that's stupid.

No, that's an urban legend. There isn't a caliber restriction in the Geneva Conventions, at all. There's a weight restriction in the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868 for exploding shells used against people (must be greater than 400grams), but the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 which superseded the St Petersburg declaration allow the use of explosive ammunition lighter than 400grams in autocannons and heavy machineguns. In addition, the St Pete's declaration only applied to the signatory countries.

The Geneva Conventions only restrict you from using "bullets which can easily expand or flatten easily inside the human body." Guess what? .50BMG full metal jacket rounds don't expand any more than a basic rifle cartridge does. They will also go clear through an elephant from forehead to pelvis, but that's a function of kinetic energy and momentum.

Now, there are .50BMG rounds that explode and are intended for shooting up vehicles, but those aren't worth shooting at a person anyway. You see, a person is so soft that the exploding round will blow up about 30-40cm behind the person it hit.

Unless you're shooting at ludicrous ranges (over 2km), a .50BMG is way, way overkill for shooting at people. What the .50BMG is ideal for is shooting up vehicles. To be completely honest, a .338 Lapua is just as long-ranged and is a lot lighter to carry, and I've even seen a new belt-fed MG that fires an equivalent round (the case is slightly differently shaped, for better reliability in a belt feed).

[Mob of Blondes]

(quote="Math Mathonwy")
Wait, isn't Savoranola the guy who thinks that a penis is the height of controversy?(/quote)
Quite the opposite, I think.

He likes to put wangs on things. If that's controversy, it's in the eye if the beholder.

To me it always seemed that he thinks that what he is doing is really edgy. Maybe I got the wrong impression.

You should read more when he talks about things, and look less at the pictures of his miniature threads.

[Math Mathonwy]

Section9, thanks for the rundown, that was very interesting, actually!

To me it always seemed that he thinks that what he is doing is really edgy. Maybe I got the wrong impression.

You should read more when he talks about things, and look less at the pictures of his miniature threads.

I have and that is what lead me to my conclusion. But this little tangent isn't very useful, so I for one will let it drop now. Sorry for taking this long.

[Steam-Age Dandy]

Interesting thoughts on this topic ...

As far as Section9's theory on HFT to clear the way is concerned, that would make sense to me if it was the Shock Army of Acontecimento. I imagine the Neoterran capital as a hypermodern Metropolis, so I doubt the Auxilia have need for heavy flamers

Concerning the addition of more stun ammo, I believe it is a gameplay issue. Most models in the game have armor but no BTS, so stun ammo has a much higher chance of putting them into unconscious state, which would make it rather powerful in he hands of cheap linetroopers.

I am a fluff-nerd at heart, but I understand that sometimes gamebalance is more important.

[chromedog]

Is lethality as a big a deal with Cube availability in some cases? I mean, if you kill the body in a police action and the Cube is recovered, they could still be tried in court for their crime.

Of course, not everyone has Cubes.

But also, all E/M weapons that can disable Cubes have specific Concilium wording:

ATTENTION: This Type of ammunition affects Cubes, deactivating them, and is forbidden by the Concilium Convention. Its use will be penalized by the international courts.

I'm getting a distinct vibe from the "Kovacs" books. In that 'verse, killing a sleeve got you a stretch in storage (your sleeve was put on ice, and your cube went into digital storage ) for up to a couple of centuries. "Inflicting REALLY, REALLY, REAL death" (i.e. destroying their cortical stack (their 'cube') so they weren't coming back resulted in the most severe penalty - "mandatory stack erasure" (IE, they executed you and made sure you weren't going to come back). There were a few other crimes that also called for that (like copying your cube and sleeving up in two bodies at the same time).

[Steam-Age Dandy]

I'm getting a distinct vibe from the "Kovacs" books. [...]

There's more than one of those? I jus started reading one, due to the cyberpunk/transhumanist themes.The one in which Kovacs is press-ganged into working for the Meth on Earth. How many are there and is this the first one?

[Harlekin]

I'm getting a distinct vibe from the "Kovacs" books. [...]

There's more than one of those? I jus started reading one, due to the cyberpunk/transhumanist themes.The one in which Kovacs is press-ganged into working for the Meth on Earth. How many are there and is this the first one?

Sadly, there are only three books and Richard Morgan already said that there won't be more of those... it's a shame.

[Section9]

Interesting thoughts on this topic ...

As far as Section9's theory on HFT to clear the way is concerned, that would make sense to me if it was the Shock Army of Acontecimento. I imagine the Neoterran capital as a hypermodern Metropolis, so I doubt the Auxilia have need for heavy flamers

I kinda doubt NeoTerra is as epically retarded as the Coruscant city-planet. Just to keep the climate working, you must leave green space (and oceans). Not to mention feeding all the people.

Concerning the addition of more stun ammo, I believe it is a gameplay issue. Most models in the game have armor but no BTS, so stun ammo has a much higher chance of putting them into unconscious state, which would make it rather powerful in he hands of cheap linetroopers.

I am a fluff-nerd at heart, but I understand that sometimes gamebalance is more important.

I'm willing to say that it's an unmentioned thing in the fluff. Cops/Imperial Service get roped into a black op, they get handed lethal ammo. Otherwise, their weapons are usually loaded with less-lethal ammo.

For example, the Chinese recently introduced a light '9mm' (ie, .38) revolver for their police where the ammo is either solid rubber or a very light lead load with what looks like an airspace between the jacket and the lead core to squash. Trying to wound, and not utterly incapacitate.

I could get into some really horrible stories about police new to having tasers/less lethal weapons 'forgetting' (ie, running on muscle memory in a stressful situation) and grabbing the pistol instead of the taser. That's why if you look at most police duty belts these days, the less-lethal stuff is on one side (usually the left), while lethal is on the right in the fastest spot for reaching it (right on or just behind the dominant-hand hip). To use me as an example, I'd have my pistol on my right hip, less-lethal stuff like taser and pepper spray on the left. Since I'm reasonably ambidextrous, I'd have the less-lethal stuff for left-hand draw, while most officers will have the less-lethal stuff for a cross-draw. I would prefer to have the less-lethal stuff for a left-hand draw to keep the muscle memory completely separate. If I ever use my right hand, it would be lethal. The right hand is for less-lethal. I might swap hands once it's up, but the left hand will draw it.

I'm getting a distinct vibe from the "Kovacs" books. [...]

There's more than one of those? I jus started reading one, due to the cyberpunk/transhumanist themes.The one in which Kovacs is press-ganged into working for the Meth on Earth. How many are there and is this the first one?

Sadly, there are only three books and Richard Morgan already said that there won't be more of those... it's a shame.

Altered Carbon, Broken Angels, and Woken Furies?

OK, I will have to add those to my library list. (I don't really buy books very often anymore, since I remember so much of what I read that re-reading usually isn't very enjoyable...)

[chromedog]

I'm getting a distinct vibe from the "Kovacs" books. [...]

There's more than one of those? I jus started reading one, due to the cyberpunk/transhumanist themes.The one in which Kovacs is press-ganged into working for the Meth on Earth. How many are there and is this the first one?

Yeah, he did 3 and only 3.

He even ends up back on his homeworld (which is a shithole after a revolution, with an entire island left to the killbots that were used in place of people - but when you want to reclaim the land afterwards, you have to clean them out). 'Hackers' to neutralise the hardware and lots of bullets if that fails. Decom teams (decommissioning). I liked Fallen Angels more than Altered carbon, though (third one).

[Arachas]

Dang it Section 9. Every time I read your posts, I feel like you were a Navy Seal or something. Awesome.

[Section9]

Dang it Section 9. Every time I read your posts, I feel like you were a Navy Seal or something. Awesome.

Navy, yes, SEAL not so much. Can't swim anywhere NEAR well enough. Can't do enough chin-ups, either. (Why yes, I did look into it while I was in the Navy and in the best shape of my life)

But I'm just a firearms nerd in addition to being a mini-gaming nerd.

[Steam-Age Dandy]

Sorry about the thread necormancy, but I've read all three Kovacs books now. And I too can recommend reading these! I did not like the plot of the last one very much, but it is still well-written! If you got the time to spare, have a look at these Section 9. Especially the first one as it has a bit of a film-noir vibe and the character coems across as somewhat Batou-like in some regards.

[Dozer]

Morgan is awesome - his other two modern books are really good as well - Market Forces and Black Man. Plus he's about to put out his third fantasy novel, the first two in the series were briliant.

About the non-leathal weapons - miltary and para military organizations (which some police forces are regarded as) particular those funded and run by a government tend to favor the lowest bidder. You train the largest number of people on the most common tool they will be exposed to. In Canada it's the C7-A2 (our M16), the Brits have the SA-80, the IDF have the TAR-21, Russians are using Ak-74 ... so when they treach basic training or primarly instruction, everyone learns how to use those as they are the primary service weapon.

Non-Lethal weapons are a breed of specialised weapon due to complexity of training, use of force models, and purchase costs. Same goes for LMGs, GPMGs, HMGs, anti-veh weapons, etc... Those tend to cost more, so there are less to pass aroudn to the serving members and have enough for training. Quite a few special equipment and weapons require more training that may adjust the current set foundation of a members training. Info like 'don't have your mouth closed when you fire the M3 CarlG' is key for soldiers. Bloody things pop your eardrums due to preasure from the round going off - so you train to keep your mouth open when you do your drills. It's funny to watch the troopy stumble around on the ranges until the second you realise he's on a live range with anti-tank munitions and possible loaded weapons.

Like Section 9 said - some peace officers are still drawing leathal over non-leathal due to muscle memory and basic training trends. When you draw your weapon, you are drawing a weapon - last stop dead. The current MET(London police) trains non-leathal first and you can train for leathal response later on but the MET are an exception to the rule.

Come the future, I could see some police forces going the route of g'old 101 (London MET) but I'd expect those personel that get assigned to support special missions are those with the more advanced training (for an attackers force). When it comes to on site secruity for high priority localtions, peace officers assigned I would expect, be more experienced as it's a not a rookie post (for the defenders force). Also when you bring along the PBI (Poor Bloody Infatry) or equivilant - you'd keep them at the basic gear and leave the toys to the folks who use them more often.

Sorry for the novel - but after catching up on the thread (which is a way interesting topic) I didn't want to leave stuff out. I'd love to see more non-leathal options show up. We're getting plenty of missions that envolve handeling civies and having more options would be nice.

[Mob of Blondes]

And it would rock if they have some kind of rule (roll 1? roll critical? roll special kind of armor?) that makes them lethal. You glue someone... chokes to death.

[Errhile]

A Crit would be fine if you want that kind of a mechanics. Roll 1 won't happen unless the target failed an ARO roll entirely (or it was a non-FtF attack roll). Crit, however, would do fine to represent an overachievment - "Damn, I wanted to succeed, but not that much!".

Of course, this would open a completely different can of worms - would, for example, a Crit on an EM weapon (say, Blitzen) fry the guy's brain in addition to his HI armor?

[Lampyridae]

People walk around with comlogs and Cubes in their brains.

In this future, why should cops ever need to carry a weapon? They're all backed up by Cubes anyway. They don't even need to be on the scene. Simply call up the criminal event (real or impending due to mandatorily-reported stress level markers) on the surveillance network and activate the legally-required backdoor over the internet and select "incapacitate."

The one exception is that, in the Infinityverse, children* cannot receive Cubes. So for them, death is real (although a memory-copy installed into a copy still means you are dead, it just fools everyone else**).

*Neither can Ateks but I can't hear you over the sound of my Oceania Credits jingling in my pockets yo

**You can add Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth books to the list. Society has basically fooled itself into thinking that the backup is a "true" resurrection in that your consciousness is transferred. You just don't talk about this uncomfortable fact.

[Mob of Blondes]

Crit, however, would do fine to represent an overachievment - "Damn, I wanted to succeed, but not that much!".

It's called the reality about "non" lethal weapons. Check the news.

Of course, this would open a completely different can of worms - would, for example, a Crit on an EM weapon (say, Blitzen) fry the guy's brain in addition to his HI armor?

The armour malfunctions and life support goes nuts, killing the user. Even EM affects Ateks. The guy, in panic, trips over and hits the head or breaks the neck against something. Dead.

Next time try CC to capture civilians. And don't ask for the coup de grâce rule (aka don't use a detained person as a seat).

[Section9]

Given that Crits are a 1/20 aka 5% chance, I think that's too high for a less-lethal "oops." I would suggest a scenario special rule forcing a 'CubeEvac' check for EM ammo or something similar.

Oh, and some teargas grenade rules. Maybe like the Swarm grenades, but only does Stun damage?