Weapon Ranges!

[reddragon76]

Loup-Garou will benefit too.

[McNamara]

Bostria said in one of the videos that snipers with x-Visor will be able to should at everything/every range without a modifier. So no -3 from 48" on. At least thats how I understood it.

Snipers able to shoot without modifiers at every range, as indicated by the underlined part.

I guess up close it doesn't change anything, by the way he put it.

This sentence is incompatible with what you said just before.. from what you said, it seems X-Visors are going to take away -3s where ever they occur in the weapon's range, as such it would change things close up.

I know and thats why I ADDED the second sentence. Look for yourself, its hard to paraphrase from memory.

I meant not where ever, just in the last section of -3, at least thats how understood him.

[Mistake Not]

Look at BoW? I'd rather not.

You remembered him saying no penalties at any range enough to write it down though? And since everything's being shaken up anyway, the X-Visor just removing the -3 penalty (now that it's showing up at different ranges) seems a pretty good guess to me. Of course it's still an assumption but everything is at this point, final 3rd edition rules might even differ from Icestorm QSR.

[macfergusson]

Based on the actual wording in the video, it is entirely possible that new X-Visor is a flat penalty reduction for range modifiers, whether close or long range.

Or it could just be the same as before, and the phrasing was not specific enough. No way to know at this point.

[Space Cowboy]

I'm feeling some dirty Bao love

[Icchan]

Yeah... but what about X-visor 2? :/

[Alf O'Mega]

I don't think X-visor's levelled?

[Icchan]

I don't think X-visor's levelled?

Sun Tze 2.0 Marksman leader has X2-Visor (sorry i messed up the name earlier).
http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/X-2%20Visor

The second generation of the X-Visor converts the Long Distance and Maximum Distance Modifiers to 0

That no longer works any better than a standard x-visor when using a sniper, so either it'll get removed and Sun Tze gets a point reduction, or it'll give a +3 to shooting even at maximum ranges which doesn't really help that much because of the snipers super long range.

[Alf O'Mega]

Sorry, my mistake - it could potentially be +3 in max for x-visor and +3 at long and max for x2? Or even +3 and +6 across the board.

[macfergusson]

I feel like either snipers with x-visor will have it changed to something else, or x-visor will be changed to remove a -3 penalty at any range (close or long). X2 may remove -6 at any range?

Otherwise, yes, X-visor may not be worth the points, on a sniper at least. Not sure how much it costs atm anyways though.

[The Revanchist]

Carlos did say that X-2 Visor will be changed exactly for that reason. He also said Snipers would be 0 at their -3 ranges. So I'm pretty confident that it's just reduce penalties by 3. This was all in the weapon range video. I don't have the minute/second counts on where he says that offhand, but it's all around him talking about Sniper Rifles.

[McNamara]

Mhh, listened to again, and it seems you re right. I still was hoping for Sun Tze with Multi rifle to get that -6 range to 0 too though.

I guess making him cheaper works also.

[Guges]

Mhh, listened to again, and it seems you re right. I still was hoping for Sun Tze with Multi rifle to get that -6 range to 0 too though.

I guess making him cheaper works also.

After seeing the new range bands that Sun Tze gets to work with, he's not getting any improvements worth having weapons wise. If the Multi-Rifle Sun Tze got an X-visor, I'd be all over that, but sadly...

We'll see what they do to Strategos, but I'm thinking Sun Tze will still be garbage on the table and won't start to get played more. I just can't see Strategos being worth 50-75 points when other factions get it for half that. Still holding out a little hope that it will be so awesome he's worth taking but not holding my breath.

[McNamara]

I was talking about Sun Tze 2.0. I bet he will keep his x-visor, or gain marksmanship, since he is a marksmen leader after all.
Carlos said his profile will need to get revisted because of the X2 visor. Which probably means he will get a little better. No revisit until now ruined a unit.
X2 was great for discover though.
And with the Lt. rules changing I can see him getting a lot more table time now. His high Strategos level will probably give you you enough advantages too, to risk a turn of irregular orders.

[jake]

We'll see what they do to Strategos, but I'm thinking Sun Tze will still be garbage on the table and won't start to get played more. I just can't see Strategos being worth 50-75 points when other factions get it for half that. Still holding out a little hope that it will be so awesome he's worth taking but not holding my breath.

Which armies get a Strategos model for that cheap? Haqq has Saladin for 37 points, which (as you said) is half of 75, but I can't think of any other Strategos models that cost less than that, let alone 25 points. What am I missing?

[macfergusson]

Kornak at strategos L1 is 43 points.

[McNamara]

Where do you get 25 points from?

Sun Tze 2.0 is 50!

EDIT: ah, you messed up the quote. Yeah Guges is exaggerating again. The HI Sun Tze is rather expensive, but is super sturdy too. Same goes for 2.0 thats practically a HI you can't hack. Since Shock doesn't work thanks to Total Immunity.

[Penemue]

We'll see what they do to Strategos, but I'm thinking Sun Tze will still be garbage on the table and won't start to get played more. I just can't see Strategos being worth 50-75 points when other factions get it for half that. Still holding out a little hope that it will be so awesome he's worth taking but not holding my breath.

Which armies get a Strategos model for that cheap? Haqq has Saladin for 37 points, which (as you said) is half of 75, but I can't think of any other Strategos models that cost less than that, let alone 25 points. What am I missing?

JSA gets it for...26 or so? Something like that. They really do need it, though.

[jake]

JSA gets it for...26 or so? Something like that. They really do need it, though.

What JSA model has Strategos? Am I missing something really obvious?

DIT: ah, you messed up the quote.

Yeah, I'm not sure how that happened.

Kornak at strategos L1 is 43 points.

Right, which isn't half of 75, let along half of 50. Again, I didn't thin there was a Strategos model cheaper than Saladin,and I think Kornak is the cheapest one after that.

[Errhile]

JSA gets Strategos?

Where??

They get a Chain of Command, which is entirely different skill, for 24pts (Kempetai)... but, AFAIK, no Strategos.

[macfergusson]

JSA gets it for...26 or so? Something like that. They really do need it, though.

What JSA model has Strategos? Am I missing something really obvious?

DIT: ah, you messed up the quote.

Yeah, I'm not sure how that happened.

Kornak at strategos L1 is 43 points.

Right, which isn't half of 75, let along half of 50. Again, I didn't thin there was a Strategos model cheaper than Saladin,and I think Kornak is the cheapest one after that.

Yeah, that was my point. He's the lowest level and probably the cheapest, but still a full 43 points.

[jake]

Yeah, that was my point. He's the lowest level and probably the cheapest, but still a full 43 points.

Yeah, okay. I was questioning Guges claim that multiple armies have Strategos models at half the cost of 50-75 points. I thought you were answering that, and I was thinking "Macfergusson is bad at math, but I don't want to be a jerk and point that out".

So Salain is the only one, right? there isn't some 25 pint Strategos model that I somehow never noticed?

[Penemue]

Sorry, guys - I was thinking about CoC and got all mixed up. :S My fault.

[McNamara]

Jake your quote is messed up again.

[jake]

That's really weird... oh! i figured it out. Okay, I'll back and fix those.

[Guges]

Yeah, that was my point. He's the lowest level and probably the cheapest, but still a full 43 points.

Yeah, okay. I was questioning Guges claim that multiple armies have Strategos models at half the cost of 50-75 points. I thought you were answering that, and I was thinking "Macfergusson is bad at math, but I don't want to be a jerk and point that out".

So Salain is the only one, right? there isn't some 25 pint Strategos model that I somehow never noticed?

My point was that he's too expensive for the points and he's way too easy to kill. Models like the Marut and Saladin do Strategos so much better. The Marut is an unstoppable death machine that can pretty much take on any threat in the game and Saladin can be protected with his holoprojector. Kind of stupid considering the real Sun Tze is the godfather of military strategy...

[Lampyridae]

Yeah, that was my point. He's the lowest level and probably the cheapest, but still a full 43 points.

Yeah, okay. I was questioning Guges claim that multiple armies have Strategos models at half the cost of 50-75 points. I thought you were answering that, and I was thinking "Macfergusson is bad at math, but I don't want to be a jerk and point that out".

So Salain is the only one, right? there isn't some 25 pint Strategos model that I somehow never noticed?

My point was that he's too expensive for the points and he's way too easy to kill. Models like the Marut and Saladin do Strategos so much better. The Marut is an unstoppable death machine that can pretty much take on any threat in the game and Saladin can be protected with his holoprojector. Kind of stupid considering the real Sun Tze is the godfather of military strategy...

...if he was an individual as opposed to several...

[jake]

Yeah, that was my point. He's the lowest level and probably the cheapest, but still a full 43 points.

Yeah, okay. I was questioning Guges claim that multiple armies have Strategos models at half the cost of 50-75 points. I thought you were answering that, and I was thinking "Macfergusson is bad at math, but I don't want to be a jerk and point that out".

So Salain is the only one, right? there isn't some 25 pint Strategos model that I somehow never noticed?

My point was that he's too expensive for the points and he's way too easy to kill. Models like the Marut and Saladin do Strategos so much better. The Marut is an unstoppable death machine that can pretty much take on any threat in the game and Saladin can be protected with his holoprojector. Kind of stupid considering the real Sun Tze is the godfather of military strategy...

I understood your point (and don't necessarily disagree). It was your comparison confused me. I hadn't realized you were exaggerating and I thought there really were multiple 25 point models with Strategos that I had somehow missed.

[Errhile]

My point was that he's too expensive for the points and he's way too easy to kill. Models like the Marut and Saladin do Strategos so much better. The Marut is an unstoppable death machine that can pretty much take on any threat in the game and Saladin can be protected with his holoprojector. Kind of stupid considering the real Sun Tze is the godfather of military strategy...

Saladin has no Holoprojector.

Guges, it is not a hyperbole. It is not even a damn strawman. You're using blatantly false statements to try to forward your agenda, which apparently is convincing the forum that Infinity is broken, and CB is keeping breaking it even worse.

You said that a number of other factions get Strategos for half the Sun Tze's price. Since you have been pointed that there are only two Strategos models cheaper than Sun Tze, only one of them has the same level of Strategos, and he costs either 75% of Marksman Leader Sun Tze, or 50% of the HI Sun Tze (and comparing an ARM 5, W 2, Total Immunity, NWI lieutenant model to ARM 3, W 1, NWI lieutenant model is definitely apples to oranges in my book), you return with the argument that this one model which is cheaper is outright better because of having a Holoprojector - which is another false statement.

Indeed, man, throw in one more false statement, and I'll swap you for a MRE.


Guges, be reasonable man and start talking like one. No lying. No strawman arguments. Have your facts researched, for Mother Ammuntion's sake...

[MarcoSkoll]

Saladin has no Holoprojector.

At best, he enjoys a Hafza decoy... but then again, Imperial Service includes Sforza as an option, who comes in at only 6 points more than a Hafza and has a viral rifle, ADHL, X-Visor and BS13 that make guessing wrong a rather more daunting prospect.

You might take the attitude that Sforza's irregular order wastes the L1 part of Strategos... but hey, I see the higher levels as the valuable part. If your plan couldn't work with 10 orders, it probably wasn't suddenly going to work with 11.

And when it comes to a roll-off between Sun Tze and Saladin, that extra +1 WIP makes him almost a quarter more likely to win the roll-off! (High WIP Lts are hilarious. Thanks to military specialities, I ended up with a WIP 20 Lt during a recent campaign tournament, which gave me an 82% chance of winning the roll off against the PanO player I faced in the last round).

In the long run, we can probably also expect to see a price drop on Pheasant CoC, if only because CoC is going to be less of a boost than it used to be (rather than saving you from no next turn, it's only saving you from an irregular next turn)... and we may well see a hefty price drop on their CC abilities too. Considering the stat-line of the Father Knight, who's got a stat and skill-line generously beyond the current Shang Ji but for a similar price, something's got to be a lot cheaper than it used to be.