Are there any alternate rule sets?

[T1m0thy]

To give you a little background, my group of friends played for a while and most got miniatures. In the end, the game lost steam and the feedback I received is that the game had too steep a learning curve. I'm the groups rules guy, and I love the game and the miniatures but I'm wondering if there are any alternate rule sets for the game, official or unofficial that are simpler or more "mainstream"?

I was asked if there was an option to play without Orders specifically? We'd like to see every model play a part in the game, but I'm not sure something like this could be done. In fact, I'd say the order function of the game is so engrained, that it can't be removed.

Has anyone tried something like this?

[Arachas]

If the learning curve is an issue, you're simply not been playing enough. Each of us had to get about 10 games in to be able to get a decent grasp on the game.

Taking orders away will greatly reduce the amount and the extend of tactical decisions you make. I wouldn't recommend it.

Have you tried the Quick Start rules? That'll help. Otherwise, try to play with as few special rules as possible. No fancy weapons, no weird tricks, just models with (straightforward) guns. At no more than 200 pts. See how that works out.

[Oreet]

If you took away the order system, and basically gave everyone one irregular order each turn, this would be a rather boring game. Each turn each model would activate, do one thing, and be done. So at best, you get 8" of movement per troop or less move and a shoot action. It gets much more complex when you add camo, hacking, air drop.

As far as rules complexity goes, I'd say the order system is on the lower end of the complexity scale. Every troop gets one order per turn. That troop can use his/her order, or allow another troop to use it. That's pretty much the order system until you get into more advanced stuff like impetuous or irregular.

Arachas is right. This game should be treated as a learning scale. Your first few games should just be minimal troops and rules, and start adding more as you go along.

[Mob of Blondes]

If going to reuse the minis with non official rules... does anybody has experience with Victory Decision? Future Combat version just launched. They look completly a different style, probably more classic.

[T1m0thy]

I think I can accept that. It's not so much that I don't know the rules, because I devoured them as best I could. We seem to have a few friends that either lack the interest or ability to play the game well. Honestly they have the same problem with 40k and other games we play. I just figured there might be some alternate rules (optional) that we might be able to implement to play.

Thanks again!

[Arachas]

I think I can accept that. It's not so much that I don't know the rules, because I devoured them as best I could. We seem to have a few friends that either lack the interest or ability to play the game well. Honestly they have the same problem with 40k and other games we play. I just figured there might be some alternate rules (optional) that we might be able to implement to play.

Thanks again!

There is a point where you have to accept Infinity is not for everyone. It's a complex, tactical game. It doesn't lend itself to casual gaming: you really have to get into it.

And if 40k is too hard for you, you're probably not fit for miniature wargaming.

Edit: I realise that may sound condescending. I really don't mean it that way. I meant that miniature games are by nature complex. Now, 40k is complex because of its many special rules. Which is actually more in the realm of bad game design, which a lot of miniature games suffer form, IMHO. When it comes to tactical acumen, though, it doesn't ask a lot.

As mentioned below, you should look into boardgames. I actually played (and still play) a lot of boardgames, after I quit 40k (and before I encountered Infinity, which got me back into wargaming). A lot of them are really simple to learn and still offer a deep tactical experience. Just a different ballgame, but can be a LOT more fun than table top gaming.

[Hunter2k3]

And if 40k is too hard for you, you're probably not fit for miniature wargaming.

That's my exact thought.

If Tabletop is too complicated for some of your guys they should play boardgames.... like Descent or something in this style. You still get minis and the rules aren't too complex.

[VisOne]

Dead zone might have simpler rules?

[Mob of Blondes]

From what I have heard, yes, Mantic's Deadzone is simpler. Check the beta rules yourself.

[VisOne]

Mercs is the other thing that comes to mind or maybe Force on Force?

[Section9]

Mercs is the other thing that comes to mind or maybe Force on Force?

Force on Force is really damn cool, but it gets really ... complicated with reaction cascades. And it's not real easy to come up with a balanced scenario. The game is built around the idea of more-or-less historical scenarios.

Assuming two equivalent forces (both trained military or both gangs/Taliban/Mogadishu mobs), which side is the active player can change. You read that right, you might be reacting to me for quite a while, until you get a good die roll and become the active player. If you have one side of, say, US Navy SEALs and the other side is Bin Laden and his guards, well, the SEALs are ALWAYS going to be the active player, and nothing bin Dead can do will let him take the initiative from the SEALs.

So the game is built around something more-or-less similar to Infinity's ARO mechanic, except there's a Troop Quality roll to see who shoots first instead of the way Infinity does it with rolling the shots. And I have put a suggestion in for an eventual revision that reactions should get resolved in two cascades. The first cascade is all Reacting units that beat the Active unit, closest to farthest, then the Active unit resolves it's action if it's still able to do so, then all the Reacting units that didn't beat the Active unit resolve their rounds of fire. Because in each round of fire, both sides get to shoot and attempt to inflict casualties.

But if your guys have a hard time keeping up with 40k? Maybe they should find a different hobby. 40k is complex because of army special rules and list-fu. On the table, I've had more fun throwing cubes of dice at people. WarmaHordes is complex because of individual model rules interactions, and playing enough to stay on top of the new threat happens to be. I just don't have the time anymore. There's not a lot of tactical thought that goes into it, you just need to be able to measure with your eyes.

Infinity has some of the individual-model-rules from WarmaHordes, and the action-reaction mechanic. Both of those have a steep learning curve, and the two of them together is pretty nasty.

[VisOne]

Mercs is the other thing that comes to mind or maybe Force on Force?

Force on Force is really damn cool, but it gets really ... complicated with reaction cascades. And it's not real easy to come up with a balanced scenario. The game is built around the idea of more-or-less historical scenarios.

Not surprised I haven't played FoF myself its such a great looking game and the range of miniatures and scales it can work with is brillant.

[Oreet]

WarmaHordes is complex because of individual model rules interactions, and playing enough to stay on top of the new threat happens to be. I just don't have the time anymore. There's not a lot of tactical thought that goes into it, you just need to be able to measure with your eyes.

Infinity has some of the individual-model-rules from WarmaHordes, and the action-reaction mechanic. Both of those have a steep learning curve, and the two of them together is pretty nasty.

my biggest beef with Warmahordes was the list building. At least 75% of the time you can just look at each other's lists and be fairly certain who is going to win without putting a single mini on the table.

[Hero of Man]

WarmaHordes is complex because of individual model rules interactions, and playing enough to stay on top of the new threat happens to be. I just don't have the time anymore. There's not a lot of tactical thought that goes into it, you just need to be able to measure with your eyes.

Infinity has some of the individual-model-rules from WarmaHordes, and the action-reaction mechanic. Both of those have a steep learning curve, and the two of them together is pretty nasty.

my biggest beef with Warmahordes was the list building. At least 75% of the time you can just look at each other's lists and be fairly certain who is going to win without putting a single mini on the table.

This.

The optimization of power combos and new nearly auto-include models started rubbing me the wrong way. Also, faction balance around a mostly unique spell(i.e. Khador has lower DEF models because access to Iron Flesh, Cygnar lower ARM because Arcane Shield, etc.) that not all the casters have access too.

And yeah, at least Cygnar has JWC, but then you're not casting AS on one of the low ARM heavy warjacks...

[Section9]

WarmaHordes is complex because of individual model rules interactions, and playing enough to stay on top of the new threat happens to be. I just don't have the time anymore. There's not a lot of tactical thought that goes into it, you just need to be able to measure with your eyes.

Infinity has some of the individual-model-rules from WarmaHordes, and the action-reaction mechanic. Both of those have a steep learning curve, and the two of them together is pretty nasty.

my biggest beef with Warmahordes was the list building. At least 75% of the time you can just look at each other's lists and be fairly certain who is going to win without putting a single mini on the table.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of any game that has an 'Army List Comparison Phase', but I honestly did drop WarmaHordes because I could not devote enough playtime to avoid getting my ass stomped in every game because I didn't know what the key model for the combo was.

[michel]

Well, you are lucky because the answer is YES. An alternate ruleset exists, and has been made by me with the help of a friend. However, it's not a different take on Infinity, it's a whole new system and game where you can (also) use Infinity miniatures. That means that you can't really play PanOceania or the Hac-Tao profile or fire a Nanopulser. It's a whole new thing and perhaps not what you were looking for.

I've named it WAM (Warfare Advanced Modeling) and it's centered on Close Quarter Battles in a futuristic Europe. It's a skirmish and ueses custom cards instead of dice.

In the end, I tend to consider it an alternate Infinity because we play it with Infinity miniatures only, and with a style that it's reminescent of what Infinity was back in 2006: a basic, innovative system with few miniatures and few quick start rules.

[Section9]

with a style that it's reminescent of what Infinity was back in 2006: a basic, innovative system with few miniatures and few quick start rules.

Good point.

*rummage*

Darn, no electronic copy of the original QS rules, just a paper copy of the original Infinity QSR book that I don't feel like retyping.

[Moleverine]

One thing you could do is treat it similar to an RPG. Each person gets a Spec Ops model from whatever army they like the best. As they complete scenarios, they can gain XP to use to upgrade their model. After time goes by and people are used to the rules, give them a certain number of points to buy additional models with. Soon you'll be playing full games of Infinity!

[MARC C]

To give you a little background, my group of friends played for a while and most got miniatures. In the end, the game lost steam and the feedback I received is that the game had too steep a learning curve. I'm the groups rules guy, and I love the game and the miniatures but I'm wondering if there are any alternate rule sets for the game, official or unofficial that are simpler or more "mainstream"?

I was asked if there was an option to play without Orders specifically? We'd like to see every model play a part in the game, but I'm not sure something like this could be done. In fact, I'd say the order function of the game is so engrained, that it can't be removed.

Has anyone tried something like this?

I've often used variant rules when I was playing 40K. I don't see why you couldn't try some for Infinity. (BTW MERCs is a terrible game.)

Never tried this but you could just decide to alternate activation between players. One model at a time.
Of course link teams would be forbidden... and smokes would be removed at the end of a GAME turn.
It will remove Rambo runs and Cheerleading of TAGs.

See where that takes you. Tell me how it went.

Cheers

Marc C

[HELLRAISER]

Chain reaction 3.0 is a good start. You´ll have to "translate" the different habilities though. The system allows you to move several figures at once at relies heavily on reactions, same as oras. The moving guy has not the advantage on attacking , quite the contrary.

First turn is a killer in Infinity, you cannot establish interdiction fire if you are the reactive guy on the first turn, so a fuslier turns a corner and hoses you with a burst 3 combi, gets lucky and greases your elite trooper who could only reply with one shot, or dodge. Well at last try to.

The only problem is that you must have a good knowledge of all THW rules , because all contribute something to the Project as I am discovering myself.

Another simpler way is to put the two players order chits in an opaque container and draw one each activation, things get very interesting that way. Only problem is with the "Dogged" skill, and is a minor one.

I am intrigued about that WAM system, could you elaborate?