Redundant text in hacking program descriptions

[Dylan Gould]

Various programs state "A successful Roll forces the target to make two BTS Rolls versus Damage ##, applying the effects of DT Special Ammunition (see page 109)."

DT ammo, in turn, states "Double Trouble (DT) Special Ammunition forces its target to make two BTS Rolls per impact suffered...Each BTS Roll failed against DT Special Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute."

Now, I assume the intent was not for hackers to cause wounds, nor for them to get double-doubled hits, so the "applying the effects of DT Special Ammunition (see page 109)" part can be ignored as redundant. Is there a rule backup for my assumption that I am missing? It came up in a conversation with somebody who wanted to read it literally, which is hard to debate.

[Scorch]

It is literal, hackers fry brains in N3

[Scorch]

But it can also be applied to the success of status effects

[Mistake Not]

Now, I assume the intent was not for hackers to cause wounds,

Why not? They did exactly that in N2 and in N3 they're even better at it. Brain Blast and Sucker Punch are amazing.

[Dylan Gould]

Now, I assume the intent was not for hackers to cause wounds,

Why not? They did exactly that in N2 and in N3 they're even better at it. Brain Blast and Sucker Punch are amazing.

A more specific question would have been "...to cause wounds with every program that has a DT or Breaker effect.

Sucker Punch states that failures cause wounds. DT ammo already says that. Either there is redundancy, or the statement there/omission elsewhere is intentional. Otherwise, Carbonite, Total Control, etc will also cause wounds. Same for the programs with Breaker.

I'm fine with having assumed wrongly, but I want to be sure.

[Dylan Gould]

The other part of the question is about doubling. If a successful roll causes two rolls for the target applying DT, which in turn causes two rolls...are we talking a potential of eight wounds with Carbonite? Exorcism does the same, though it has the "non-lethal" tag on it; which takes priority?

All inconsistencies that I found go away without the "applying the effects of ##" part, which is the main reason I made my assumption of non-wounding unless specifically stated.

[Scorch]

A more specific question would have been "...to cause wounds with every program that has a DT or Breaker effect.

Nope, DT and Breaker only apply to the amount of saves you have to make or the BTS value of the target. They do not 'automatically' cause wounds. But, it can be that the programs that use DT and Breaker all cause wounds, but that's program-specific and not the ammo that is being used.

You could look at it like this: DT attacks the Firewall twice with the program, and Breaker weakens the Firewall of the target while running the program.

And no, in no way does it causes 8 BTS saves.

If you make one attack (1 die roll) with DT, the opponent has to make 2 saves for a successful attack. If the program has a Burst value of 2 (2 dice roll) and DT ammo, the target has to make 2 BTS saves for every successful die roll, going up to 4 BTS saves. DT does not give you 2 dice rolls on a Burst value of 1. It's similar to Double Action Ammunition, only in cyberspace.

Also; Carbonite does not cause wounds. See table on p.153 in N3 books. Carbonite causes IMM-1.
To clear it all up:
Carbonite has a Burst value of 2 in the Active Turn, Damage of 13. DT Spec. Ammo.
You can roll 2 dice for your attack (Burst 2), and for every successful roll (WIP +3) your target has to do 2 BTS saves. If you're lucky, it can go up to 4 BTS saves for your opponent. Failing one of those saves will cause the model to become IMM-1 (Immobilized for 1 turn).

Exorcism also does not cause wounds, as it can only be used on a friendly, Possessed TAG.
To clear it up:
Exorcism: (Burst 2, Damage 18, DT Spec. Ammo) allows you to roll 2 dice in your active turn. 2 attacks on a straight WIP roll. For every successful roll your opponent has to make 2 BTS saves (WIP -3 rolls in case of a Reset), which can cause the TAG to lose the Possessed state.

I hope this clears it up. I'd advice you to take a good look at the hacking rules again, reading them thoroughly and testing them out. You are welcome to ask more questions if you feel the need!

[Dylan Gould]

Scorch, I agree that your summary, on all points, is how it should be played, and is exactly how I have been playing it.

Also; Carbonite does not cause wounds. See table on p.153 in N3 books. Carbonite causes IMM-1.

Therein lies the problem, however. The table you refer to, as well as the breakout on Carbonite on p.155, both specify it uses DT ammo; p.109, which the breakout refers to, specifies "Each BTS Roll failed against DT Special Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute."

Here is the text from the breakout:

»»In the Active Turn, the user may distribute two WIP+3 Rolls among one or two targets.
»»A successful Roll forces the target to make two BTS Rolls versus Damage 13, applying the effects of DT Special Ammunition (see page 109).
Failing either or both Rolls causes the target to enter the Immobilized-1 state, signified by an Immobilized-1 Marker (IMM-1).
»»The effect of this program is Cancelled automatically at the end of the current Player Turn, but the induced state may be Cancelled earlier by other means.
»»The range of this program is the Hacker’s Hacking Area.

The bold part is even bold in the book.

Now, if something indicated that the Immobilized part replaces the DT part, wound problem solved. Removing the bold part (which is the redundant piece, as the sentence right before it summarizes the DT effect anyway) also solves it.

[Dylan Gould]

Oops, I agreed with everything too soon.

Exorcism: (Burst 2, Damage 18, DT Spec. Ammo) allows you to roll 2 dice in your active turn. 2 attacks on a straight WIP roll. For every successful roll your opponent has to make 2 BTS saves (WIP -3 rolls in case of a Reset), which can cause the TAG to lose the Possessed state.

I believe the WIP-3 part should be on the face-to-face roll, not the BTS save. But everything else, I still agree with as how it ought to be played...but the issue of the DT reference to p.109 has still not been addressed.

[Claudius Sol]

What about this? The comma merely is explaining why there are two rolls being made?

[Scorch]

Oops, I agreed with everything too soon.

Exorcism: (Burst 2, Damage 18, DT Spec. Ammo) allows you to roll 2 dice in your active turn. 2 attacks on a straight WIP roll. For every successful roll your opponent has to make 2 BTS saves (WIP -3 rolls in case of a Reset), which can cause the TAG to lose the Possessed state.

I believe the WIP-3 part should be on the face-to-face roll, not the BTS save. But everything else, I still agree with as how it ought to be played...but the issue of the DT reference to p.109 has still not been addressed.

Yeah.. that's right.. my bad for mixing that up. The F2F is the regular WIP vs WIP-3 in case of Reset or BS-3 in case of a shot. The BTS save is on Normal BTS.

On the issue of page 109, it's not yet officially FAQed as far as I know, but I think the Wound/Strength stuff should be replaced by the status effects caused by hacking programs. I'm gonna look it up for you in the forum FAQs for a more official referencing.
Otherwise Exorcising your own TAG will cause you to damage it, that'd be weird

It would also make the text indeed very redundant. My guess, if the Hacking Program says clearly to cause Damage, apply DT as given on page 109.

[Scorch]

Frankly, since the Hacking programs are very clear when it will cause a W/STR loss, I don't think I need to look it up. It's clear by being left out on the other Hack Programs that you'll only need to apply the DT rules for the rolls, while the effects will either damage or successfully change status.
Not really intuitive, but a lot of rules things aren't.

[Dylan Gould]

On the issue of page 109, it's not yet officially FAQed as far as I know, but I think the Wound/Strength stuff should be replaced by the status effects caused by hacking programs. I'm gonna look it up for you in the forum FAQs for a more official referencing. Otherwise Exorcising your own TAG will cause you to damage it, that'd be weird

I tried searching the official forum, but the signal-to-noise ratio there is stronger than my search-fu...one of the reasons I posted this issue here.

I believe that until an official FAQ addresses it, I will continue to play it as both you and I believe it should be played. Thanks for taking the time to help!

[Scorch]

On the issue of page 109, it's not yet officially FAQed as far as I know, but I think the Wound/Strength stuff should be replaced by the status effects caused by hacking programs. I'm gonna look it up for you in the forum FAQs for a more official referencing. Otherwise Exorcising your own TAG will cause you to damage it, that'd be weird

I tried searching the official forum, but the signal-to-noise ratio there is stronger than my search-fu...one of the reasons I posted this issue here.

The signal to noise ratio is one of the reasons I decided to start the blog! I can relate! But right now, it's even too much noise for me to sift through.

Glad I could help out. Answering rules questions like this makes my own understanding of the system a lot better as well!

[Scorch]

Found the same question on the Official Forum, together with some replies from (among others) playtesters.

You can find it here.