ZVZ Smoke Question

[macfergusson]

Alright, we had a disagreement at the local group tonight.

Question that came up boils down to this:

If a model (A) is shooting target (B) while behind a smoke (ZVZ) template, but is not in the template, nor shooting through the template, can another model (C) ARO through the smoke at the -6 penalty?

Assume the ZVZ is NOT between A and B, but IS between A and C. A is targeting only B, not C.
A is not in the ZVZ or interacting with it in any way. Can C ARO against A?

Put simply, does an attack blocked from LoF by a ZVZ always reveal the shooter, whether or not the attack was in any way interacting with the ZVZ?

In an active turn, miniatures with a Special Skill or Equipment which ignores the blocking of LoF created by Zero Visibility Zones, can perform a Ballistic Skill attack or Forward Observer before his target. His adversary, if he survives the attack (Succeeding at an ARM roll or corresponding reaction) and all enemy figures with LoF to the attacker can perform their ARO despite the Zone, because the attacker has revealed for a moment his location. If the reply is a Ballistic Skill attack, or Forward Observer, they must apply not only Distance and Cover Modifiers but the –6 Modifier for the Visibility Zone. So in this case, for a BS combat in, or through, a Zero Visibility Zone there is no Face to Face Roll, just Normal Rolls.

We have one group that claims the shooter needs to be acting either in or through the ZVZ to reveal himself, opening up the possibility for AROs.

The other group believes that the act of shooting makes it possible for any unit to ARO through the ZVZ (albeit after first strike and at a -6 penalty), whether or not the shooter used a some Skill or Equipment to ignore the blocking of LoF by the ZVZ.

Is this statement a prerequisite for the remainder of the paragraph: "In an active turn, miniatures with a Special Skill or Equipment which ignores the blocking of LoF created by Zero Visibility Zones, can perform a Ballistic Skill attack or Forward Observer before his target."

[Aerospider]

The rules simply don't cover it. The opening line of said paragraph could indeed be taken to mean the rule only applies to shooting through the ZV zone, but then a problem arises with multiple ZV zones.

Suppose A is shooting B through smoke and is obscured from C by a separate smoke zone. A should be vulnerable to everyone because he is shooting through a ZV zone, but if he would have been safe from C without shooting through smoke then there is an unsatisfying situation where more smoke has made A more vulnerable instead of less.

You could treat the smoke being shot through differently to how you treat all the other smoke, but that would definitely be a house rule.

I believe most people play that it doesn't matter whether you are firing through the smoke or not because it's less demanding that way.

[solkan]

If a model (A) is shooting target (B) while behind a smoke (ZVZ) template, but is not in the template, nor shooting through the template, can another model (C) ARO through the smoke at the -6 penalty?

No, not unless A chooses to break the face-to-face roll using the zero visibility zone. That's the part in red:

In an active turn, miniatures with a Special Skill or Equipment which ignores the blocking of LoF created by Zero Visibility Zones, can perform a Ballistic Skill attack or Forward Observer before his target. His adversary, if he survives the attack (Succeeding at an ARM roll or corresponding reaction) and all enemy figures with LoF to the attacker can perform their ARO despite the Zone, because the attacker has revealed for a moment his location.

The second part is what happens if the part in red becomes relevant.

Gunfire on the other side of a smoke cloud doesn't magically reveal everything on other side. Gunfire going through a smoke cloud does, as the counter balance to the psuedo-combat camo.

[macfergusson]

This similar conversation on the old forums got posted as well. People seemed to believe the other case was true there. Not sure how to reconcile that.
http://infinitythegame.com/forum/index. ... ntry509676

[solkan]

I'm not about to start underestimating the ability of people to read a rule wrong, especially after the guts movement FAQs.

It's an entire paragraph, not a collection of isolated parallel statements.

In an active turn, miniatures with a Special Skill or Equipment which ignores the blocking of LoF created by Zero Visibility Zones, can perform a Ballistic Skill attack or Forward Observer before his target. His adversary, if he survives the attack (Succeeding at an ARM roll or corresponding reaction) and all enemy figures with LoF to the attacker can perform their ARO despite the Zone, because the attacker has revealed for a moment his location. If the reply is a Ballistic Skill attack, or Forward Observer, they must apply not only Distance and Cover Modifiers but the –6 Modifier for the Visibility Zone. So in this case, for a BS combat in, or through, a Zero Visibility Zone there is no Face to Face Roll, just Normal Rolls.

So a model with level two vizor throws the ZVZ grenade on the ground. Then his friend, who can't ignore the zone, makes a shooting attack.

Why would any of that paragraph apply to a model that wasn't ignoring the zone?

[macfergusson]

That is entirely my thought process as well, but I seem to be getting overruled by a majority in my local group based on the reaction in that other thread.

[IJW Wartrader]

Unfortunately I can't find my old thread on the official forum that went into all this in excruciating detail, but the end result was that the only way to play it consistently was that all BS Attacks reveal firers through ZVZs regardless of whether the attack was through, behind or within the ZVZ.

Otherwise you get absurdities like it making a difference if smoke templates overlap or not, because the reactive troops aren't behind the ZVZ that's being fired through if there's a millimetre gap between the templates, but if they overlap it's the same zone and they can react...