New camo rule and other rule rumors

[Spears]

Mass transformations can be a bit troublesome

I saw the first line of this and was afraid to keep scrolling.

[Errhile]

will have to wait for the full N3 rules to know for sure.

Therefore, ladies & gentlemen:

[mbdeyes]

Ok... so it looks like this thread got off the rails pretty badly.

I would like to actually talk about how the new camo rules affect things, specifically if possible.

It seems to me it is definitely better for the camo unit if he is exposing himself to multiple ARO's.
However, the examples being used are the extreme of a TO:Camo Sniper which is not necessarily the best example.

How about a regular Camo at a regular range band, etc.?
Or worse, a regular Camo figure with a template weapon or short ranged weapon that has to risk facing other template weapons more often? For instance... great for my Ninja Sniper, not so good for the Oniwaban or the Chasseur.

Also, when would you not dodge from a revealing Camo or TO sniper, really? Unless the dodge rules interact differently with camo now, It will always, under normal circumstances be better to dodge than shoot back with at least a -9 to -12 to your BS skill. They reveal, potentially wasting an order, then they lose the -3 advantage and that's that.... as opposed to getting shot before being able to dodge.

[LORDSHARICK_]

Also, when would you not dodge from a revealing Camo or TO sniper, really? Unless the dodge rules interact differently with camo now, It will always, under normal circumstances be better to dodge than shoot back with at least a -9 to -12 to your BS skill. They reveal, potentially wasting an order, then they lose the -3 advantage and that's that.... as opposed to getting shot before being able to dodge.

Indeed...

[macfergusson]

Dodging would also still have the -3 from Surprise Shot. The wording is that it applies to all Face to Face rolls, not just BS attacks in ARO. So unless you're shooting at some high PH hyperdynamics type unit, you will be at an advantage no matter what they choose to do.

[IJW Wartrader]

Also, if they're Dodging into better cover to avoid the next round of shots you've (hopefully) just cleared a route for an infiltrator to advance/interact with an objective/recamo because nobody has LoF.

[mbdeyes]

Also, if they're Dodging into better cover to avoid the next round of shots you've (hopefully) just cleared a route for an infiltrator to advance/interact with an objective/recamo because nobody has LoF.

Lol.... I'm not saying there aren't tactical reasons to reveal and shoot, just that on average you should see more people dodging (-3) vs shooting back (-9 to -12).

[macfergusson]

Also, if they're Dodging into better cover to avoid the next round of shots you've (hopefully) just cleared a route for an infiltrator to advance/interact with an objective/recamo because nobody has LoF.

Lol.... I'm not saying there aren't tactical reasons to reveal and shoot, just that on average you should see more people dodging (-3) vs shooting back (-9 to -12).

Which means your camo troop can miss completely and still survive.

[MattS]

The Chasseur is now a suicide troop with its LFT or in a dodgy but still statistically good place with its rifle.

The Chasseur will fire at BS 11 (+3 for range, -3 for cover) and its target will probably be rolling at BS -6 (-3 for out of camo attack, -3 cover, -3 camo, +3 range) so even shooting at nasty PanO TAGs and HI with their base BS 15 the Chasseur will have two higher BS and multiple shots. Against link teams and units with MSV it will be much harder but against link teams you were already going to suicide the Chasseur with its LFT, now the targets just have a chance to dodge or kill you.

[macfergusson]

The Chasseur is now a suicide troop with its LFT or in a dodgy but still statistically good place with its rifle.

The Chasseur will fire at BS 11 (+3 for range, -3 for cover) and its target will probably be rolling at BS -6 (-3 for out of camo attack, -3 cover, -3 camo, +3 range) so even shooting at nasty PanO TAGs and HI with their base BS 15 the Chasseur will have two higher BS and multiple shots. Against link teams and units with MSV it will be much harder but against link teams you were already going to suicide the Chasseur with its LFT, now the targets just have a chance to dodge or kill you.

Suicide troop for DTW seems a bit exaggerated. The reactive troop will still have to shoot back with a single die at a significant penalty, and the Chasseur player should be planning to reveal from cover for the ARM bonus as well.

[MattS]

True but you don't often use a DTW on just one unit (unless its say Achilles, Avatar, Sphinx, big important buggedy-boo with ODD or TO) but against a group of people so its multiple shots at a -3 (-3 cover, -3 camo, +3 range) so you should plan for your Chasseur to die. Also if its against an Achilles, Avatar, Sphinx or a Buggedy-boo then you are taking a template in return and a template that hits harder against a Chasseur which has less ARM/BTS and wounds...

So... I'm going to stick with it being a planned suicide with the potential for an accidental survival.

[macfergusson]

True but you don't often use a DTW on just one unit (unless its say Achilles, Avatar, Sphinx, big important buggedy-boo with ODD or TO) but against a group of people so its multiple shots at a -3 (-3 cover, -3 camo, +3 range) so you should plan for your Chasseur to die. Also if its against an Achilles, Avatar, Sphinx or a Buggedy-boo then you are taking a template in return and a template that hits harder against a Chasseur which has less ARM/BTS and wounds...

So... I'm going to stick with it being a planned suicide with the potential for an accidental survival.

Well sure, if you're doing a sacrifice on purpose to take out a much stronger unit, that is entirely valid.

[Errhile]

I wouldn't also be surprised (note that, howerver, it is a wild speculation off the top of my head) should DTW cause a -6 modifier on shooting back at them, just like they used to affect Dodge in 2ed.

[macfergusson]

I wouldn't also be surprised (note that, howerver, it is a wild speculation off the top of my head) should DTW cause a -6 modifier on shooting back at them, just like they used to affect Dodge in 2ed.

I would be surprised, as Bostria said that DTW isn't changing.

[Aikuchi]

To throw in a piece of speculation of mine:

With the intent to streamline the rules and reduce arguable modifiers, terrain-specialisation gets trown overboard.
...who's using Z-g anyways?

[Spears]

We may well be missing something not included in icestorm but currently attacks from camo with a dtw dont gain the surprise attack bonus, it only works on ftf and your opponents aro will be a normal roll.

[Aikuchi]

Killing my own speculation: Reverend Healer got "multiterrain" in its profile, so it seems to be still in.

Edit: Ain't the Reverend its the Spektr...saw it.

[IJW Wartrader]

Spears - we don't know anything at all about DTWs.

Aikuchi - so does the Spektr.

[Lampyridae]

Mass transformations can be a bit troublesome

I saw the first line of this and was afraid to keep scrolling.

Yup. You don't want to get bathed in a werewolf mass-equivalent of gamma rays...

[Lampyridae]

To throw in a piece of speculation of mine:

With the intent to streamline the rules and reduce arguable modifiers, terrain-specialisation gets trown overboard.
...who's using Z-g anyways?

I would only ever use it in a scenario-specific setting, or as an intermittent variable (such as a space station under attack in Paradiso). Throw a D6 and if it's a 6 Zero-g kicks in for a turn. Knowing how artificial gravity works in Infinity would help a lot - if it's some kind of electromagnetic deck plating thing it could easily go off line for a short period..

[mbdeyes]

Bostria said that templates were especially effective against camo in the N3 rules.
The new camo rules seem to affect attributes (BS for shooting, PH for dodge, etc.) which, of course, aren't used with templates.

However, he only referred to attacking a camo figure, not what would happen if the camo figure was using the template. If they don't even get the bonus for surprise, which would surprise me, then it's even worse for them.

I know some people who will be happy if this nerfs Chasseurs, but I'm not one.
Of course, depending on things like terrain, number of orders, Super Senses, etc., there's still the option to try to get in behind a group of models you want to flame....

Any other units who might suffer under the new rules?

[Errhile]

Hmm, not to the fullest extent, no. From what I read, I get that you take the -3 surprise modifer to whatever you do in response to a Camo Attack, right?

So if you get Flamed by a Chasseur, you dodge at effective -9 (-6 for Direct Template, -3 for Camo Attack / Surprise Shot, as it seems to be called now), mkaing it pretty difficult.
If you shoot back, it is still on -6 (-3 Surprise Shot, -3 Camouflage: Mimetism), so you better reach for that pistol to at least even it off a bit by gaining +3 range modifier.
On the other hand, I'd reserve a Surprise Shot Direct Template Weapon attack for those high-gain situations then - use your Rifle (or pistol) in most cases, but if you get a number of targets under your remplate, or you're going to burn Camo / ODD / Nanoscreen from an otherwise hard to hit target - take the risk (no risk, no fun? ) and burn them. Sure, your Chasseur might die doing that, but there is a good chance of gains outweighting the losses...

[IJW Wartrader]

It applies to FtF rolls.

[Errhile]

An interesting observation:

We've been told that thare are 7 Silhouette types, right?

Now, we know that humna-sized models are S 2.
Freaking large TAGs on 55mm bases are S 7.

Probably it might go like:
S 1 - G: Servant / G:Synchronized REM, like Palbots & Auxbots
S 2 - vast majority of troops who are roughly human-sized.
S 3 - regular REM (low models on 40mm bases)
S 4 - Large Human (Tarik, Ajax, small TAGs on 40mm bases - because they are taller than REM - Dog Warriors and perhaps Antipodes)
S 5 - Large REM (Baggage Bots, advanced attack REM, e.g Lunokhods) on 55mm bases. Perhaps Bikes, too.
S 6 - I don't have a sound idea, I'd guess these are light TAGs on 55mm bases - things like Stingray 3 series.
S 7 - we know already the large TAG models, including Jotum, come here. Iguana too, though it isn't so very large (still larger than old sculpts of Lizard or Szalamandra).

I wonder, however, where does Maghariba fit in that system - it is low, but wider than anything else. Unless it is the sole occupant of S 6 category on its 80mm base, I would really expect a resculpt to make it fit into either S 7 (as befits a MBT - Main Battle TAG), or even scale it down to the (proposed) S 5...

With all the streamlining of the rules, I wouldn't expect to have such a big exception to be left out in the open, right...?

Also, I'm damn curious about Su Jian - since it is formally a (Remote Presence) HI and not a REM, I don't know whether it tranistioned from 40 to 55mm base like all the Advanced REMs, or kept to 40mm. Still, in combat form it should be using a different Silhouette size than in Mobility form.

[McNamara]

My guess is 6 are small TAGs on a 40mm. Sphinx and Gecko.

EDIT: Regarding the Su Jian. I would go with small Remote, big human. Both are on a 40mm base. so its pretty easy.

[mbdeyes]

.... Sure, your Chasseur might die doing that, but there is a good chance of gains outweighting the losses...

I'm not saying the Chasseur is useless or there aren't ways to use them. I'm not talking in the extremes that these forums are prone to. What I'm saying is that there's no chance of auto hitting a target and burning them to death without them being able to respond. I'm simply pointing out an option they no longer have.

As well, the longer the range of the camo attacker, the more likely they are to cap out their defense modifiers due to the target not getting them in optimal range. Bostria himself said that camo works better overall at greater distances. As a result, shorter ranged camo figures will not do as well as longer ranged figures. The Chasseur fits this category. It is unfair to characterize camo figures as if they are all To snipers, yet that is the example that often gets used.

[Ghost]

For me the main issue is forward observer... I don't think that I will use my traktor mul a lot... ^^

[Section9]

To throw in a piece of speculation of mine:

With the intent to streamline the rules and reduce arguable modifiers, terrain-specialisation gets trown overboard.
...who's using Z-g anyways?

The whole terrain rules need to be redone, that's for sure. But my entire Nomad collection is built off the idea of a Zero Gee boarding team. Not a single model that doesn't have either Zero-gee or Multiterrain with zero gee as a possibility.

[FatherKnowsBest]

I wish the terrain rules were better.

[Mob of Blondes]

In what sense? Also are we talking about "jungle" or the effect of a bush line?

The issue I see is they are split, with limited examples so people are unable to expand to more cases, and in the end, rarely used. It would had been better with one or two examples with photos, in which say a green card random shape in the table, with some trees on top as decoration, is described as forest and the shooting takes that into account.