New camo rule and other rule rumors

[Aikuchi]

Well...two to three trees and some schrubs ain't no jungle for me...and I'd ecpect some moder day soldier to cope with gravel and bolders on the ground...but that's just me.
But, as said, to straight out the game flow for the mathematically challenged it would make sense ( btw. since I got some Multiterrainoptions with the Corgies I don't realy care that much...).

[Claudius Sol]

This is slightly off-topic, but still related. After a slight deliberation, I've decided to post it here.

If combat camouflage first-strike attacks are going away...

What of Martial Arts Lv. 3?

It also had a first strike mechanic. I sincerely hope it's not going to be just another -3 modifier on your opponent. It needs to be at least a -6 to equal the effect of the new Surprise Shot. Preferably -9 or greater as CC isn't nearly as difficult a stat to obtain as BS. High CC isn't rare. Could N3 see a big nerf to CC?

Ways I could see that would work better for adjustments to Martial Arts Lv. 3 (mix and match to your pleasure):

1. -9 Modifier on opponent's CC
2. increased burst on active model CC
3. something else?

If active models get higher burst in CC, the modifier could be acceptable at -6, but wouldn't be nearly the same effect as how Martial Arts Lv. 3 stands right now.
Hopefully CC doesn't get nerfed further. I want Ninjas to be in CC. I want Oniwaban in CC. I want Yojimbo in CC. The list goes on. Hell, I'm even known for getting an Ectros or two into CC.

[Machinist]

As far I've seen, CC is going to be more exciting, yet potentially still quite messy. I quite like it, solo CC specialists have a high chance of going solo and scoring critical hit(s) with few odd twists for the opposition (Konstantinos can roll higher, score a critical and Yasbir rolls just below his roll). If CB balances all CC specialists to be situational with no clear favorite rather than cut and dry case, I'll be rather pleasantly surprised.

Martial arts can contain other already existing skills, from Berserk, climbing plus or something more unique, perhaps allowing to react with full swings with his hand weapon in close combat.

[macfergusson]

We do know that CC has basically been completely re-written, but we don't know what yet. I would expect MA3 to change to something else, as they are specifically working to do away with anything that alters the normal flow of order resolution.

It seems like there may actually be a potential for burst in CC now, which is a huge change by itself. On top of that, CC values seem to be skyrocketing on CC-trained units. Just let that stew and ponder for a bit...

[Lampyridae]

My 2c: Assault is B2 CC in the first round.

[Icchan]

My 2c: Assault is B2 CC in the first round.

That doesn't sound like a "complete rewrite"

[Claudius Sol]

I could see assault being +1 burst. With normal active CCWs having a burst of 2... >:3

[Lampyridae]

My 2c: Assault is B2 CC in the first round.

That doesn't sound like a "complete rewrite"

It is if the various levels of MA and how they cancel each other out / screw you over in certain situations go out the window...

[Errhile]

Besides, in ranged combat we already have different Burst values - different between various weapons, but also between active and reactive turn (no to mention things like Total Reaction). And we know pretty well how this affects combat. Why not introduce equivalent Burst mechanics into Close Combat?

In 2ed you had a single attack / defense roll in CC, no matter whether you were a line infantryman with knife/bayonet, or a close combat monster Knight / Samurai swinging wildly their sword. Unless you had MA L3 and your opponent didn't, close combat was hectic and damn risky.

Now, shall we get Burst into CC, it would be changing things. While getting into CC is still likely to be difficult and dangerous thanks to ARO mechanics, having more attack dice will let you calculate the risk and try to launch close combat assaults that cold be predicted to be effective in a smimilar way to shooting attacks.

[Arachas]

Just imagine the Oniwaban. Let's say he gets Burst 3 with his Katana. Martial Arts... 3? 4? Will shred anything that comes close. And then he gets +6 on his boardung shotgun. And he's in hidden deployment... gah...

[Errhile]

Well, but perhaps this will make Oniwaban a viable choice for the JSA / YJ players...

[Icchan]

I don't think N3 will have any martial arts levels, but this is completely based on Father Knight's profile not having any MA levels, so just speculation.

What are people's thoughts on supposedly not being able to dodge to CC in ARO? Though it will stop some interesting quantum effects, it severely nerfs some inexpensive martial artists that could pacify a threat just by moving in to CC with the target.

[CoveredInFish]

I thought skill kinematica, that enhances the dodge movement range, has been described as tool to get into CC.

[takezo]

I wouldn't be surprised if the multiple burst in cc only allow one hit to be performed no matter how many successes you get. Imho the objective is just to reinforce probabilities.
CC with 2 weapons could be an exception though.

[Errhile]

Where that rumor came from? While I don't have anything sollid on that, the Kinetika skill looks way like it was designed primarily to help just that: Dodge into CC in ARO...

[Icchan]

Here: http://www.lead-rising.com/2014/08/oper ... undup.html
It could be that dodging to CC is not permitted in Icestorm because it doesn't really have the full rules for CC.


EDIT: just watched this bit again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMqM3P0Md3Q#t=1911
Bostria mentions that yes, kinematika is designed as a skill to help dodge to CC as an ARO. So it very strongly looks like it's forbidden only in O:I rules.

[Machinist]

I don't think N3 will have any martial arts levels, but this is completely based on Father Knight's profile not having any MA levels, so just speculation.

What are people's thoughts on supposedly not being able to dodge to CC in ARO? Though it will stop some interesting quantum effects, it severely nerfs some inexpensive martial artists that could pacify a threat just by moving in to CC with the target.

I doubt it. I'd say up to MA 2, the levels will remain unchanged, looking at Spetsnaz and Yasbir for instance.

Curious what they'll do with various Knights.

[Errhile]

But we haven't seen N3 profiles of Yasbir and Spetsnaz, have we...?

I assume that stuff like Bolts or new Tarik Mansuri were all temporary profiles, as these models have been designed / redesigned for N3 rules, and releasing their N3 profiles with no N3 rules wasn't making any sense...

[IJW Wartrader]

Given their points cost, new rules and CC 20 I'm pretty sure we've got the N3 version of the Spetsnaz.

[Errhile]

Well then.
We shall see. As for the moment, we haven't got even a release date for the N3...

[Errhile]

One thing that crossed my mind a moment ago.

Combat Camo being no longer a First Strike - type attack, instead becoming a Surprise Shot -3 to the opponent's reaction FtF?

Thet changes the game pretty much for the 6th Sense L2! Untill now, 6th Sense L2 was the only thing to give you a fighting chance against sneaky Combat Camo dudes. Now, you'll still have a fighting chance against them, though with a -3 modifier, even without 6th Sense L2.

Sure, assuming the rest of the rules aren't going to change (and we know nothing about minute details like 6th Sense L2) it will be still useful against out-of-LoS attacks (Speculative Fire, Guided Ammunition, shot-to-the-back and firing-thorugh-zero-visibility-zones), but I feel it will be pretty balanced against 360-Visor (of the above list, it helps only against shoot-to-the-back, since you have no back - but also allows to react to other actions than just attacks agaisnt yourself, if they are performed within your rear hemisphere).

Nice job there, CB. Suddenly the much-lamented Sekban Haris Team becomes way more comparable to the much-applauded Odalisque Haris Team...

[McNamara]

Odalisque just can take 360 Visors too though, so it doesn't change a lot. :/

[Machinist]

I've been looking at Knight of Santiago, exactly because it'll became a bit harder to shot him without provoking any ARO. I'm really loving the change on combat camouflage.

[Errhile]

Odalisque just can take 360 Visors too though, so it doesn't change a lot. :/

Well, it blows away the "I need 6th Sense to protect my Haris against Combat Camo" argument, doesn't it?

[Tim]

I've been looking at Knight of Santiago, exactly because it'll became a bit harder to shot him without provoking any ARO. I'm really loving the change on combat camouflage.

Seems you're heavily under-estimating the effect of 2-4 dice + the surprise camo -6 BS penalty (since he has no MSVs)
Test it in any simulator and the santiago isn't at all safe in ARO and he isn't dishing out much damage either.

His best odds of a hit at all are boarding shotgun point blank, but even then the gun's +6 is wiped out by the penalty, then the attacker can peek from the corner where santiago's at cover disadvantage.
Basic combi rifle in the hands of a camo naga is crushing the santiago even in best case for santiago (close range shotgun)
http://infinity-math.appspot.com/?attac ... er_armor=4

E/M grenade is even less viable against the camo mods and multiple dice, since the combi rifle's 3 dice stops it from even hitting. (the E/M grenade on santiago succeeds only 5% against naga surprise attack, whereas the knight loses both wounds 26.5% and loses at least one wound 70% of the time.)

That's not even including tricks like laying a mine around the corner, re-camoing and attacking with full shots + mine autohit and following it up with v:dogged even if an ARO succeeds.
Hell, Santiago actually had better odds against the old camo, as he would usually suffer 1 wound and then get an unopposed grenade or ARO shot.
Now it's too easy to entirely negate santiago's ARO almost 95% of the time with a decent surprise burst.
A 19-26 point basic camo trooper handily crushes the 44-51 point Santiago with little help from the 360 visor.

Unless they change something massive about him, it's only in offense that Santiago will be worth his cost.
Offensively, the change of grenade +3 range to 8" instead of 4" will allow him much better offensive (where it isn't a FTF) speculative shot E/M grenade snipes on important enemies.

[Jeerdan]

I reckon the new assault rule will allow you to dodge into CC. with kinematica you will be dodging further then the normal 2". Doesn't the father knight have kinematica + Assault and is a CC troop?. that makes sense to me, since the new rulle in the photo above denies the 2nd ed ability for anyone to dodge into CC.

Also My wild idea would be the Breacher pistol adds Burst to your CC.

[Lampyridae]

I've been looking at Knight of Santiago, exactly because it'll became a bit harder to shot him without provoking any ARO. I'm really loving the change on combat camouflage.

Seems you're heavily under-estimating the effect of 2-4 dice + the surprise camo -6 BS penalty (since he has no MSVs)
Test it in any simulator and the santiago isn't at all safe in ARO and he isn't dishing out much damage either.

His best odds of a hit at all are boarding shotgun point blank, but even then the gun's +6 is wiped out by the penalty, then the attacker can peek from the corner where santiago's at cover disadvantage.
Basic combi rifle in the hands of a camo naga is crushing the santiago even in best case for santiago (close range shotgun)
http://infinity-math.appspot.com/?attac ... er_armor=4

E/M grenade is even less viable against the camo mods and multiple dice, since the combi rifle's 3 dice stops it from even hitting. (the E/M grenade on santiago succeeds only 5% against naga surprise attack, whereas the knight loses both wounds 26.5% and loses at least one wound 70% of the time.)

That's not even including tricks like laying a mine around the corner, re-camoing and attacking with full shots + mine autohit and following it up with v:dogged even if an ARO succeeds.
Hell, Santiago actually had better odds against the old camo, as he would usually suffer 1 wound and then get an unopposed grenade or ARO shot.
Now it's too easy to entirely negate santiago's ARO almost 95% of the time with a decent surprise burst.
A 19-26 point basic camo trooper handily crushes the 44-51 point Santiago with little help from the 360 visor.

Unless they change something massive about him, it's only in offense that Santiago will be worth his cost.
Offensively, the change of grenade +3 range to 8" instead of 4" will allow him much better offensive (where it isn't a FTF) speculative shot E/M grenade snipes on important enemies.

The Santiago is better off simply dodging. Vs BS12, the PH14 -3 Combat Camo penalty gives 11.26% chance of success, 25.11% chance of a whiff and 41.23% chance of a single wound, 19.27% chance of two wounds and 3.27% chance of killing the Santiago outright (same as using the Boarding Shotgun except the Dodge is more likely).

[Machinist]

I'm trying to be positive. I can't recall when it was the last time I used any of my HI. Hopefully there will be a reason to sweep the dust from them or maybe buy one of the Knights.

[Section9]

If CB is tossing any/all first strike mechanics out the window, that implies significant changes to MA3.

What I'm hoping for in CC changes would be additional burst (at least during the active turn), but I don't think +1B for each level of MA is going to cut it. Musashi getting B6 CC attacks?!? even though he's worthless outside of 10", that would make him a freaking blender.

[Claudius Sol]

that would make him a freaking blender.

I see no problem with this.