Data Sphere

So, just to get me something else to focus on, I went looking around for a Space Fleet wargame like Battlefleet Gothic. Posting this topic here, as I didn't think it would be suitable for the Official

I know of Firestorm Armada, and while the minis look decent, the system hasn't gotten much praise.
The other one I know about is Full Thrust, and while the system looks kinda cool, is hard to come by around here..

Even thinking about setting something up myself!

I'm not really looking for dogfighters like X-Wing and Attack Wing. Both are cool, but I like the more massive space-fleet style myself.


Let me know what your experiences are with systems and maybe any advice on other systems that I didn't know of? Or discuss what you'd want to see in a Space Fleet game, if I ever get to setting one up myself!

I'm a big fan of Full Thrust.
Yes, it's a bit outdated.
Yes, it has steppe learning curve.
Yes, it is difficult to find an opponent to play.
But it has very-very strong rules system: simultaneous orders, vector movement, alien races that differ so much.
...
And I hold my breath each time I think about it.

I have the .pdf rules for Battlefleet Gothic if you are interested (back when GW actually had specialist game support…). I have never played myself, but have heard good things about it. The rules seem fairly elegant and straight forward. Good luck finding BFG models, but if it's only you and your gaming group, who says you can't have a 'counts as' army?

PM me if you want the rules, and we can figure out a way for you to get them.

I got the BFG pdf as well; very glad of it too since the whole lot got killed off :/

I do like BFG very much, and my experience with Firestorm is that it's alright. They have a new edition out recently but I haven't had the chance to try them, yet.

Another fleet game of sorts i have played is Leviathans, but that's flying battleships and ironclad airships rather than spaceships.
I like that its system is kinda similar to BFG in that targeting depends on both range and facing, but different weapons systems use different types of dice to do their damage. These are not standard dice however; they are unique to this game and organised by colour, some have more lower results and some have more higher, so certain weapons will use certain dice and so will have different average damage output.
Not too bad an idea; the biggest guns are much more likely to be devastating and will never suffer from a plague of 1s.

Downside is that their aren't many minis for it , but Dystopian Wars has some *very* similar minis to use. Also that the core set is *really* expensive for what it is :/

M2Cat wrote:I'm a big fan of Full Thrust.
Yes, it's a bit outdated.
Yes, it has steppe learning curve.
Yes, it is difficult to find an opponent to play.
But it has very-very strong rules system: simultaneous orders, vector movement, alien races that differ so much.
...
And I hold my breath each time I think about it.

Wow, that sounds really promising. I have all their PDFs, but haven't really played it. Just got it as a tip from other forumites. It's just the models that are hard to get.

Is it customizable? I mean, can you create your own factions and such, without it getting entirely unbalanced? Or is it pretty much set in stone?

H1ghlander, I found the BFG rules in PDF a while back, here. They looked pretty good, and I need to try them out soon. It's a game that was lost before I really got into the hobby. I only saw a couple of already diminishing ships on the GW sites back in 2008 or something like that.

Cho-Konnit wrote:Another fleet game of sorts i have played is Leviathans, but that's flying battleships and ironclad airships rather than spaceships.
I like that its system is kinda similar to BFG in that targeting depends on both range and facing, but different weapons systems use different types of dice to do their damage. These are not standard dice however; they are unique to this game and organised by colour, some have more lower results and some have more higher, so certain weapons will use certain dice and so will have different average damage output.
Not too bad an idea; the biggest guns are much more likely to be devastating and will never suffer from a plague of 1s.

WOW, that sounds like a great idea indeed! It makes it worth to invest in one big, instead of multiple smaller in hopes of many dice = higher hitrate. I might need to steal that idea O:)

Scorch wrote:H1ghlander, I found the BFG rules in PDF a while back, here. They looked pretty good, and I need to try them out soon. It's a game that was lost before I really got into the hobby. I only saw a couple of already diminishing ships on the GW sites back in 2008 or something like that.

Glad to see you have them. I downloaded all my .pdfs from the GW website, so I have the rules for all the races, Basic & Advanced Rules, Campaigns, some fluff, etc. If you ever want any of it, let me know.

M2Cat wrote:I'm a big fan of Full Thrust.
Yes, it's a bit outdated.
Yes, it has steppe learning curve.
Yes, it is difficult to find an opponent to play.
But it has very-very strong rules system: simultaneous orders, vector movement, alien races that differ so much.
...
And I hold my breath each time I think about it.

Same here.
I also like Starmada. Also old, but great.

Funnily enough I was only looking into this topic the other day.

Full Thrust seemed to be recommended and also had the benefit of having a freely downloadable ruleset. I figure you can basically use any miniatures as it's the sort of indie game that's not about the brand, as we've become used to with the likes of Infinity, 40K, Firestorm Armada, etc.

I remember enjoying Silent Death back in the day, though that was hex-based. Not tried Starmada, also hexes but seems to get good reviews.

Check out the list on http://www.star-ranger.com/Home.htm

As for buying minis, do GZG not ship their Full Thrust range internationally?

H1ghlander wrote:
Glad to see you have them. I downloaded all my .pdfs from the GW website, so I have the rules for all the races, Basic & Advanced Rules, Campaigns, some fluff, etc. If you ever want any of it, let me know.

Oh, there are more? I already found this bunch of PDFs much!

Lots of good stuff about Full Thrust too. Might need to bite the bullet than, as it is still supported by a company, which is a big plus in my book.

Maxvon_d wrote:As for buying minis, do GZG not ship their Full Thrust range internationally?

They do, but shipping is rough, and their site shows almost no pictures, which I personally find a bit troublesome. I like to see what I buy.

Thanks for the link, will check it out!

If you wan to run large battles with lots a ship on the table my personal favorite is Star*Fire. The construction of ships is very simple and you can customize at will : (note that its not a miniature game. The game out in the 80s with counters and a hex map. But you can use miniature if you want.)

There is a basic rules download :
http://www.starfiredesign.com/starfire/

I'd like to hear more about Starmada.

^ I second that. That stuff looks really amazing. Can't find minis though, how does that work?

Another vote for Full thrust, here.

It's not hard to get ships for it. GZG DO have a website and the GO to the big cons in the UK (and Eureka australia at least have them -until the end of year - so Eureka US might also).

Failing that, there exist a large number of conversions for other universe's ships for the game. It's not unusual to see the Empire v the federation or 12 colonies v Earth Alliance battles in this game. The rules are generic enough to handle it.

M2Cat wrote:I'd like to hear more about Starmada.

Starmada comes with a highly modular rules set, which allows fitting the game to your needs.
You of course can custom build your army.
The basic rules are quite easy to get into and should present no problem for any experienced gamer. And with all the optional rules, you should easily be able to include the depth and complexity you're looking for.

BGG

Official Site


I have to confess, that I didn't play it for about 4 years, but I had a lot of fun with it even though we used mainly the basic rules.

Placeholder post so I don't forget about this thread I may paste a compiled list of things to check I made on a different forum later.

But more seriously, a disaster of an attempt to get into Firestorm Armada (I ended up disliking the system and hating the minis) made me realize that starfleet combat are boring to me in general because:
- most simulate very close future tech - inertial drives (most don't simulate momentum though, making the most obvious space maneuvers impossible :wtf:), very limited firepower
- higher tech would make the setting very unbalanced, there's little to do when conflicts are resolved by diplomacy/trading/obvious overwhelming victory of one side/utter annihilation of the other's forces, apart from differences in tech level/philosophy the difference between offense/defense means either decisive first strike or a deep futility of attacking
- that said, I'd actually like to play a game that goes in depth into zero-G maneuvers (or better yet, multi-dimensional, but good luck finding that). I have SITS and similar on my to-check list, as well as High Frontier (different kind of game, same feel).
- aliens not alien enough

Star*Fire : No takers?

LOL! Okay, I'm aware the art work is really bad but the basic of this system is excellent. The reason I liked that system when it came out was the simple way you can crate armadas. Each ship is recorded in the following fashion on a sheet :

[S][S][S]+[H][H]+[Q]+[M]+[L]+[E][E]

S are shields, H are Hull points, Q HQ, M missiles, L Life support, E engines, etc. The larger the ship the longer the string of [system]s and the price goes up accordingly. Its just an exemple. There are a lot of systems available. Each race have their own technology.

As you can see its possible to record and keep track of 20+ ships on a single sheet of paper.

Systems are destroyed in a left to right manner. Some weapons skip systems, others target specific systems.

We used to play (80s) only with the Basic rules and it was a lot of fun. I played a few games again in 2007. It was still a good system to me. My friends who are not miniature gamers picked it up quickly and really enjoyed the games. We used Full Thrust models bought on eBay.

Quick Start Rules 2012
http://www.starfiredesign.com/starfire/ ... 201206.pdf

ULTRA STARFIRE : ULTRA STARFIRE is a complete re-write of the rules since GSF, designed and balanced for competitive gameplay. Rather than focus on a history, ULTRA STARFIRE's goal is to make player-vs-player gameplay as balanced as possible. Completely cross-referenced and in color, ULTRA STARFIRE represents the Fifth Edition of the STARFIRE rules.
$21.00 Ultra Starfire: Digital Only
Order Page : http://www.starfiredesign.com/starfire/order/

Pierzasty wrote:Placeholder post so I don't forget about this thread I may paste a compiled list of things to check I made on a different forum later.

But more seriously, a disaster of an attempt to get into Firestorm Armada (I ended up disliking the system and hating the minis) made me realize that starfleet combat are boring to me in general because:
- most simulate very close future tech - inertial drives (most don't simulate momentum though, making the most obvious space maneuvers impossible :wtf:), very limited firepower

Agreed, it always seems to play like a naval thing. I think it is part of the tabletop abstraction. I mean, IRL you could just blow stuff to bits from beyond Jupiter without an effort. Try fitting THAT on your kitchen table! I am looking forward to your compiled list!

- higher tech would make the setting very unbalanced, there's little to do when conflicts are resolved by diplomacy/trading/obvious overwhelming victory of one side/utter annihilation of the other's forces, apart from differences in tech level/philosophy the difference between offense/defense means either decisive first strike or a deep futility of attacking

This might actually work in a campaign, where you could collect 'bigger forces' and others could retreat, leaving their planets/resources behind when the odds are against them. Losing the battle but ultimately winning the war. That would be something I'd like to see!

- that said, I'd actually like to play a game that goes in depth into zero-G maneuvers (or better yet, multi-dimensional, but good luck finding that). I have SITS and similar on my to-check list, as well as High Frontier (different kind of game, same feel).

Hm, I haven't got a clue how that could work on a 2D table. Maybe it's my lack of imagination, but I envision some extremely complex and almost undoable tech-stuff. But, worthwhile to look into.

- aliens not alien enough

Haha, well, I can see it work without aliens, if they aren't alien enough! But you mean like how Infinity alien factions really play/feel different from the Human Sphere? Might be a problem with F:A, though.

MARC C wrote:Star*Fire : No takers?

I'll look into it! It sounds promising, although it lacks the minis! haha! Might be a great and surprisingly easy step up though, as some of the other systems look really crunchy.

I sure have gotten a lot of good stuff from this thread! Starmada for example was a system I've never heard of!

I'm another one who is a big fan of Full Thrust, it's my go to ruleset for space combat.

One of the big benefits is that it can be played with any spaceship miniatures you like, my favourite fleet is made up of Zandris IV ships.

Jon at GZG is running his Christmas promotion at the moment, so if you can spring for the shipping he will make it more than worth your time with extras.

Full Thrust does have design rules, but make sure you get all the supplements. The ship design rules you want to be using are in Fleet Book 1.

Full Thrust is the winner in terms of cheap.

If you don't mind Gundam-esque gaming, Jovian Chronicles is really pretty slick. It really focuses on the small craft, (the larger craft are actually built as multiple smaller chunks because the build system doesn't work well at the multiple-thousand-ton range). It has a design-your-own rules system that is rather detailed about what capabilities you have and glosses over the raw mechanics of how it works. The build-your-own system is a bit complex and time consuming, but games play fast and furious. You can get PDFs from RPGNow for a few bucks, they may have some books left in stock, too.

I think that Lightning Strike v1 (hexless) has the conversion rules from standard Jovian Chronicles (on a hexgrid), but playing on a plain table pretty much kills any simple way to do 3d. Lightning Strike feels a lot like Full Thrust, to tell you the truth. Jovian Chronicles does 3d and follows Newton's Laws. Lots of burn&coast there.

Jovian Chronicles is second on my list of space games to check out, I really like both their universe and the rules.

I'd look at Squadron Strike, as well. SqnSt (I don't use the "SS" abbreviation unless I'm talking about Nazis) is related to Saganami Island Tactical Simulator, but isn't attached to the Honorverse. It also has a build-your-own system, but it tends to make Excel cry like a little girl. SqnSt gives you options of how many of Newtons laws you want to follow, and even allows ships to follow different numbers of them in the same battle. Squadron Strike also can handle an equal number of ships-per-player as Full Thrust, and in 3d. Once you're reasonably experienced, of course.

If you *really* want to go utterly-full 3d, full-Newtonian, the best game out there is Attack Vector Tactical. It's by the same gang as SITS and SqnSt, but because full 3d necessarily includes changing fuel loads, it's a closed design system. Building ships requires calculus, and Ken Burnside does NOT want to answer a thousand-and-one questions on AVT ships when he's swamped with SqnSt ship evaluation requests.

Attack Vector Tactical has one hell of a steep learning curve. Squadron Strike is a bit better, but there's still a lot of "learning to think in 3d" involved. Once you can picture in your mind where an opponent's ship is in relation to your ship, you will be a deadly ship-captain in either game.

Splod wrote:Jon at GZG is running his Christmas promotion at the moment, so if you can spring for the shipping he will make it more than worth your time with extras.

And you'd swear that Jon has a wormhole, as fast as he ships things. I'm talking 4 days from UK to the west coast of the US, basically as fast as the USPS is inside the US.

Splod wrote:Jon at GZG is running his Christmas promotion at the moment, so if you can spring for the shipping he will make it more than worth your time with extras.

Might need to stick it out till next Christmas, currently unemployed and scraping moneys from all sides and the couch. Not the best time to dive deep into a luxurious expense like X-mas sales. Unfortunately.

I've looked around a bit, and I must say the Full Thrust miniatures are some of the best I've seen, and their scale is also much more to my liking than the bigger variants like F:A. + It's not all locked up and set in stone, so you can mix and match whatever you want! I might bite the bullet when I've got myself a job again!

If FT as modular as Starmada? From what I've gathered with my Google-fu it looked like you could stick and leave out whatever you wanted from the systems.

Like I said, it's flexible enough that people have converted up sheets and stats for the old Star wars fleet battle stuff - and I have personally seen Babylon5 Earth Force destroyers (Mongoose?) v Star Trek Starfleet battles.

You'd use a "close enough" for the conversions (weapons and shields and so on), and hyperdrive isn't really used - but the rest can be used with a little work.

Wow, Section9.. You know your space fleet games! Didn't know there were so many out there.

I think, looking at my grades on the number-courses in high school, I might need to skip the true Newtonian stuff. Amazing what people can do with them and how they crunch them into a game system.. utmost respect.. But it sounds like not my cup o'tea. Or maybe for later on. But, I guess Pierzasty will be all over it!

Section9 wrote:I'd look at Squadron Strike, as well. SqnSt (I don't use the "SS" abbreviation unless I'm talking about Nazis)...

Fun fact: on my last deployment we put SS OFFICER on the door of our Safety Standards Officer, and on his desk plate. We dead panned not knowing what his problem was with it.

I'm really digging on Full Thrust and Jovian, but I'm hesitant; as I get older I get less interested in learning really crunchy systems, especially if I have to then convince my like minded friends to learn them. What's the easiest, least crunchy but still fun fleet game?

Full Thrust and Starmada both aren't too complex and/or complicated to start with. More depth can be added later with both games.
I personally prefer Starmada as the rules imho are presented in the more convenient way and the game is more to the point (imho). I also like hexes when it comes to space combat games (including dogfight games). Helps to keep things simple and clear. Plus you don't need anything besides the rule book.

Here are the playing sheet for both games (sorry for the crappy pics - didn't do any preparations);
Starmada to the left and Full Thrust to the right - nothing a gamer couldn't handle.

Hero of Man wrote:

Section9 wrote:I'd look at Squadron Strike, as well. SqnSt (I don't use the "SS" abbreviation unless I'm talking about Nazis)...

Fun fact: on my last deployment we put SS OFFICER on the door of our Safety Standards Officer, and on his desk plate. We dead panned not knowing what his problem was with it.

I'm really digging on Full Thrust and Jovian, but I'm hesitant; as I get older I get less interested in learning really crunchy systems, especially if I have to then convince my like minded friends to learn them. What's the easiest, least crunchy but still fun fleet game?

You might try Colonial Battlefleet. The Man vs. Machine supplement is aimed at Cylon vs. Colonials type situations. The only problem with FT is there was never a FT3, ie something that condensed all the rules into one. Right now the rules are spread across 4 or more books with various sections now obsoleted by the subsequent books. I made a very rough condensed version of the rules for our gaming group. If you like I can send it to you.

I think there were rumblings of a Full Thrust update coming, but I don't know how reliable or soon.

Poseidal wrote:I think there were rumblings of a Full Thrust update coming, but I don't know how reliable or soon.

I found someone talking about 3rd Edition in 2009 :') while looking up some info on the system and how to start. I don't think it's really a thing that's coming soon.

@ Lampyridae
I found a Remixed FT version in the link I posted up there ^^^^