Data Sphere

Hey all,

Between various posts/discussion on this forum and the official forum, I started subconsciously mulling over questions, and then this post made the thoughts conscious. What do you think will happen to Ariadnan HI?

Granted, I don't think we'll get hackable HI - that would seem to flush about half the Ariadna fluff down the tubes. However, with other HI getting a movement boost from 4-2 to 4-4, what do you think will happen to Ariadnan HI? One of the reasons I was drawn to Ariadna when I first read the Infinity rules was the fact that they had 4-4 unhackable HI, albeit only 1 wound (the other reason was a camo autocannon). 6-4 HI would seem silly, and I don't think CB will introduce 6-2 movement. In terms of equity with other factions, does that leave Ariadna HI to get a point drop across the board (assuming no other profile modifications). I mean, the Hac Tao got boosted to 4-4 (among other goodies), and still received a cost reduction.

One idea passed around was to make all HI in MI. This certainly gets around the 'unhackable HI' issue, and in terms of terrain it's certainly a wash (potentially). I don't immediately see an issue with this, but does change the majority of movement speeds as our MI is generally slower than our HI (all MI but Briscards are 4-2, while only the Mormaer is 4-2). To me, turning all HI into MI just means that the spread of how 'heavy' our MI is increases ('light' = Briscards, 'regular' = Scots Guard/Tank Hunters/Moblots, 'heavy' = Veteran Kazak/Mormaer). If all HI did turn into MI, would their speeds get changed too? Likely? Probably not, but still a concern.

Speculate away!

H1ghlander

Frankly I don't see a big change in their MOV or stats, just a price reduction maybe.
I don't think they'll make them any faster, since it's quite likely that other faction's 4-4 HI will not be getting any faster either.
You're right about making them MI, it would make sense since that's what they basically are, except a little faster. And though 4-4MOV MI is rare, there's at least one such mini (Sun Tze) and CA had the now discontinued 6-2MOV MI Exrah.
Mormaer will probably see it's speed increased to 4-4 and it's AP HMG heavily discounted. What I'd really like too see is for all of them to get the V:NWI skill. Coupled that with their current shock immunity and in most cases they would act like normal 2W HI, except they're never in unconscious state, but rather go directly to dead state after two wounds. So it's still a drawback compared to true 2W, but not massively so.
A Nomad Riot Grrl is quite close in stats to a Veteran Kazak, though the Kazak gets to incredibly useful SSL2 skill from his Veteran skill. An AP Rifle MSV1 wielding Kazak is 10 pts more expensive than a Multi Rifle armed MSV1 Riot Grrl. This 10 pts buys the Kazak the SSL2, +1 CC and BS and Immunity to hacking. SSL2 is actually quite an expensive skill in N2, so it might just add up.
However, Multi Rifle point costs are goind down about 4 points so I'm expecting AP rifles to go down some points as well, so this should be reflected in the Kazak's point cost too.

Kazaks also have the weird Doctor option, which they themselves don't really need. The only time you can use it on a Kazak is when their NWI has already kicked in and he's still in action. There's a 35% chance that you'll botch the doctor roll and end up killing the Kazak instead of bringing him back to 1W. Currently they're not even linkable.

So uhm... yeah, that's my 2 cents although I think I lost my train of thought somewhere, but to summarise I'm expecting slight point reductions, possibly no changes to stats or skills.

Icchan wrote:Frankly I don't see a big change in their MOV or stats, just a price reduction maybe.
I don't think they'll make them any faster, since it's quite likely that other faction's 4-4 HI will not be getting any faster either.

Oh, I'm quite expecting a points reduction for Aridanan HI.

What we've seen so far for Yu Jing implies a lot of stuff getting recosted. I mean, a basic Hac Tao is 6 points cheaper in N3 than in N2, and honestly has a lot of buffs attached.

So I would not be surprised to see the Ariadnan HI getting cheaper AND picking up more skills!

Hmmmm, new skills you say?

From a fluff stand point it wouldn't be entirely impossible for Veteran Kazaks to get Chain of Command - all being NCOs… Maybe a new profile for AF and the Kazak sectorial.

However, I'm most hopeful for a shakedown of the Moblot/Minuteman profiles. Both have fairly strong physical profiles (well, the same), but it would be nice to have some distinguishing features/skills between the two, as well as make them a bit more attractive for the French and vanilla armies. From a quick search of the Ariadna army lists, only two used Moblots/Minutemen, and one of the lists was USAriadna flavoured…

Also, 4-4 Mormaers would be awesome.

I love the Moblots (the sculpts, I mean) and would be really happy if their price dropped considerably (4-5 points each would do, imho). As for the skills, yes, an additional something to give them more "oomf" would be awesome. The most logical thing would be that they all get MSV1. They would lose one of their profiles (the current MSV1), reducing clutter. This skill will be a lot more useful in N3 and that would make Moblots quite tougher opponents. The only other option that would make them better without changing too much and respecting the fluff is Mimetism. Again, it would allow dropping one profile in the Army list and would respect the idea that such "lighter" HI have an easier time using their environment to camouflage a bit.

Speaking about Chain of Command, I so want Margot to get it. As NCO, it makes sense. It is not overpowered because it is an obvious target already anyway. And having a decent AD specialist in MRRF would be soooo cool!

Section9 wrote:What we've seen so far for Yu Jing implies a lot of stuff getting recosted. I mean, a basic Hac Tao is 6 points cheaper in N3 than in N2, and honestly has a lot of buffs attached.

So I would not be surprised to see the Ariadnan HI getting cheaper AND picking up more skills!

Hac Tao price reduction is probably mostly because the Multi Rifle is getting 4 points cheaper. The other 2 points are probably from a discount to CC stat, or maybe even TO camo since it's not that powerful anymore.

Still, that's good news for AP Rifle users, since the AP rifle will have to be cheaper than Multi Rifle because of it's range band and lack of shock or DA ammo. Quite possibly it'll cost 1 or 2 points more than Combi Rifle. Based on the Bashi Bazouk profile, AP rifle seems to currently cost 3 points more than a normal rifle. Combi Rifle is weirdly the same price as a normal rifle, which is something that will hopefully be fixed in N3. Multi Rifle in N3 is 4 points more than a Combi Rifle, so AP rifle should fall in somewhere between. In N3, the Multi Rifle is 8 (!) points more than a Combi Rifle, so the current price of the AP rifle is actually quite competetive. If their price ratio remains the same in N3, AP rifle should drop 1.5 points, so 1 or 2 pts cheaper. Maybe. Let's hope.

Even the HMG seems to get a minor price reduction, so basically all Ariadna HI profiles might get cheaper.

But you're both right about the similar profiles between Moblots and Minutemen, most of their profiles are identical. Let's hope CB does something to make them more unique and not just be linkable HI in their own sectorials. This kind of overlap is unnecessary.

So, wishlisting what they'll do to make them different of each other:
From fluff, Moblots seem to be the frontline grunts, with aggressive tactics in middle to large scale operations. Minutemen are a smaller unit, practically a skirmisher focused on rapid mobilization and lightning strikes equipped with heavy armament. Both have specialists in their ranks for various field operations.
- Mechanized deployment for Minutemen maybe?
- Moblot AVA increased to 5 or Total in MRRF, maybe some heavier weaponry, like a missile launcher?

An interesting observation on Moblots vs Minutemen - not only they seem to be nearly identical in terms of stats, skills, equipment and available profiles (save for a few - 3, IIRC - that result mostly from the new skills available in Human Sphere, I don't remeber whether Minutemen got anything in that book), but also their unit patches are triangular.

Most Ariadnan unit patches are round (with a few being shield-shaped), and those two particular units bear a triangle-shaped ones... I have a gut feeling they might be related much more closely than we could think.

Still, it would be nice to make them distinctively different in N3.

Icchan wrote:Combi Rifle is weirdly the same price as a normal rifle, which is something that will hopefully be fixed in N3.

I assume you missed the four points for the LSG on the Rifle Bashi Bazouk. Combi Rifles are three points over Rifles.

IJW Wartrader wrote:

Icchan wrote:Combi Rifle is weirdly the same price as a normal rifle, which is something that will hopefully be fixed in N3.

I assume you missed the four points for the LSG on the Rifle Bashi Bazouk. Combi Rifles are three points over Rifles.

You're right, I miscalculated.

Wow, so light shotguns are 3 points then? (Fiday with Rifle+LSG is the same as Fiday with BSG and BSG's are the same as Combis). That seems a little too much for quite a weak weapon.

Apparently BSG's are getting one point discount in N3, I hope LSG's are getting too.

Well, why do you think we Haqq keep talking about "the shotgun tax"?

Luckily, in N3, the shotguns are going to be a really useful weapon up close, in the rifle's blind spot. +6 to hit up to 8", makes sense actually.
A point cost decrease would be indeed welcome, but that is yet to be seen...

I just checked the math, looks like the LSG with B2 and +6 BS is slightly better than a combi rifle with B3 and +3 BS against a standard line infantry.
But only by about 1-2 % units. But that's if you guess the range correctly.
So it's possible the shotgun tax won't be a tax after all, it'll actually come in handy, even in trying to opponents camo or ODD.

EDIT: Some more interesting math, because I was bored.
Let's say your gun has burst 5 and you have a about 70% of knocking your target. If your burst dropped by one, you'd need a bonus of +2 to BS to compensate for it to keep the odds of knocking your target about the same. I did the math for all burst drop steps and got this as a result:
Burst drop: BS Compensation needed:
5 to 4 +2
4 to 3 +3
3 to 2 +4
2 to 1 +14

Boy, that sure escalated quickly.

Icchan wrote:

Section9 wrote:What we've seen so far for Yu Jing implies a lot of stuff getting recosted. I mean, a basic Hac Tao is 6 points cheaper in N3 than in N2, and honestly has a lot of buffs attached.

So I would not be surprised to see the Ariadnan HI getting cheaper AND picking up more skills!

Hac Tao price reduction is probably mostly because the Multi Rifle is getting 4 points cheaper. The other 2 points are probably from a discount to CC stat, or maybe even TO camo since it's not that powerful anymore.

Still, that's good news for AP Rifle users, since the AP rifle will have to be cheaper than Multi Rifle because of it's range band and lack of shock or DA ammo. Quite possibly it'll cost 1 or 2 points more than Combi Rifle. Based on the Bashi Bazouk profile, AP rifle seems to currently cost 3 points more than a normal rifle. Combi Rifle is weirdly the same price as a normal rifle, which is something that will hopefully be fixed in N3. Multi Rifle in N3 is 4 points more than a Combi Rifle, so AP rifle should fall in somewhere between. In N3, the Multi Rifle is 8 (!) points more than a Combi Rifle, so the current price of the AP rifle is actually quite competetive. If their price ratio remains the same in N3, AP rifle should drop 1.5 points, so 1 or 2 pts cheaper. Maybe. Let's hope.

AP ammo in general is grossly overcosted in N2, I don't know how CB managed to flub that so badly (maybe because HMGs were undercosted, but AP HMGs were about right?). I'm not sure AP ammo is even worth 4 points on a rifle, but it sure as hell isn't worth 6.

Even the HMG seems to get a minor price reduction, so basically all Ariadna HI profiles might get cheaper.

Well, the HMG got a pretty massive nerf from the ubergun of preference to having a defined role and more than one small situation where it wasn't simply the best weapon for the job. So there's going to be a whole lot of not-the-points-we're-used-to involved. Things will be 'weird' for a while after N3 drops.

But you're both right about the similar profiles between Moblots and Minutemen, most of their profiles are identical. Let's hope CB does something to make them more unique and not just be linkable HI in their own sectorials. This kind of overlap is unnecessary.

Crud, until Human Sphere, Moblots and Minutemen were literally identical, copy/paste versions of each other.

So, wishlisting what they'll do to make them different of each other:
From fluff, Moblots seem to be the frontline grunts, with aggressive tactics in middle to large scale operations. Minutemen are a smaller unit, practically a skirmisher focused on rapid mobilization and lightning strikes equipped with heavy armament. Both have specialists in their ranks for various field operations.
- Mechanized deployment for Minutemen maybe?
- Moblot AVA increased to 5 or Total in MRRF, maybe some heavier weaponry, like a missile launcher?

Mech deploy would actually be quite in fitting for a descended-from-Americans unit. Even our Airborne and leg infantry units are getting a truck light enough to be carried in by a helicopter now. Yeah, fly in a helicopter, so if the helo doesn't drop you on the position, get in the truck to go the last few miles quickly...

But I think the MRRF is supposed to be set in pretty firm concrete now, so I'm not expecting major changes like new weapons profiles or increased AVA. Might be surprised (like how many AD units have lost HMGs), but I'm not holding my breath.

As mentioned, giving the Moblot Mechanized Deployment would set them apart from the Minutemen, while keeping in line with the 'feel' of the MRRF as a rapid response force (damn - it's in their name).

Giving the Minutemen something so they feel part of the USArianda would be in line, but because that sectorial hasn't been released yet, we can only speculate. From a Canadian stand-point, two major points that sets our military apart (on a personnel level) from the American's is the difference in equipment and amount of training. The average Canadian infanteer has about 2x more training than an American infanteer, but the American carries at least 2x as much more money in equipment. I admit this is 'current US' rather than '175-year-from-now US', but giving the Minutemen X-Visor/MSV1/360-Visor/somesuch across the profile would be interesting. Also, because the USAriadna spends the most time dealing with Antipode assaults, giving them equipment that allows them to engage the hounds as further distances makes sense.