How To Run/Stop A TAG?

[superskilly]

I've been playing Infinity for a while now off and on, and its without doubt the best game out there.

However, most of my games have been either low point or demo games I have little experience of running or indeed countering TAGS, the only game I played against them being a duel TAG list that literally ripped my ALEPH a new one.

Do people have any general hints/tips/good practice for running or countering TAGs they can share with me?

I'm going to be running a Marut or Gorgos depending on which of my armies I use, but was more looking for general things that cover most TAGs that I can also share with my gaming group.

Thanks in advance!

Ed

[Aeon]

I played Thursday against a TAG. It was a 250pt game. I played Nomads and my opponent played CA .

I hacked the TAG with my Hackers. ( I used a list with 3 Hackers, a custodier, an Interventor and a Spektr(TO) I didnt knew I would play against a TAG-List I just wanted to try a Hacker heavy List) I also used a Moran as repeater.

My Opponent forgot that my Moran is a Repeater and moved in the ZoC and I ARO-Hacked him. After that I got his Lt. We stoped there because other players needed the Table.

So my tips: Hackers and TAGs are very good against TAGs. If you run a TAG try running a Hacker too as defensive. If your Opponent tries to Hack your TAG and you have a Hacker he must do a ftf-roll.

[VisOne]

Basic anti TAG will most times come in around 1 SWC + points cost for a hacker and a EVO repeater.

As Aeon has already pointed out Nomads for Anti TAG hacking really well. Others not so much but that's normally because most factions struggle to get repeaters in the right place. That said doesn't mean Haqqislam can't hack a TAG or that Pan O can't do it either. All factions have access to good hackers and EVO repeaters. Unless your CA or Tohaa the former have NO EVO repeaters because they have the most disgusting evil TAG in the game and the later have no hackers.

Link teams are another good counter to a TAG. Since most TAG don't carry any amazing super duper can't be stopped weapon often you can just outshoot the bastards and it doesn't matter if your link team is 65 points worth of Celestial Guard or 180 points worth of Wu Ming. If you start knocking his dice out with FTF rolls he can barely defeat than your likely to start stripping its STR points.

There are other tricks every heard of a ADHL or a Akrylat-Kanone? Maybe a E/M grenade or a Blitzen? TAG's can be stuck to the floor or turned off like like any other REM or HI on the board and they are massive chunk of points for your enemy knock it out of the game and they are going to hurt.

Finally when it doubt throw LI out. Seriously anything can CRIT in this game and TAG's lose STR points just like a LI will lose its WOUNDS.

[Hero of Man]

All my Anti-TAG experience is with QK:

Panzerfaust Burst 2 AROs from a Ghulam link team can put the serious pain on a TAG, and has made my Szalamndra using friend to reconsider his approaches; I have completely annihilated it on a turn he went devil may care.

Al'Hawwa FO with a Boarding Shotgun can also cause some mischief if you can get behind them on the active turn; forcing them to turn to face you, you can have the rest of your heavy hitters move up and fire with impunity, forcing him in deciding who he really wants to take unopposed hits from. Never tried D-Charges, but I hear its a lot of fun if you can swing it.

Yuan Yuan with a good Booty roll can be a pain on a TAG as well; nothing to be relied on, but I've gotten pretty lucky in this department(Mono-CCW turns her into a budget Shinobu Kitsune).

[Pierzasty]

What were your monomine Nagas doing against that dual TAG list?

[superskilly]

In all honesty, there were no Nagas.

The Paradiso book has just come out and I was using As many special characters as I could fit in 300pts.

That actually didn't make much difference, they were all dead by my turn 2!

[SgtHulka]

Everyone's talked about the special tricks already. As for dealing with them with standard troops, you have to:

1) survive its active turn
2) out-burst it in your active turn

...both of which are easier said than done.

Basically, you're gonna know a TAG's coming before turn 1, unless it's a sphinx, cutter or cascuda. If you don't have first turn you have to survive its first turn. It's going to use all its orders to kill as many of your figures as possible. Then it's going to save its last order or two to get into full cover. You have to deploy in such a way to minimize damage as much as possible. Anyone who doesn't have a legitimate chance to beat its multi HMG in a face to face roll, hide. That's pretty much everyone, except for the occasional TO Camo or ODD guy. Don't bunch up to give it a good target for its heavy GL or its heavy flamethrower. If you've got a lot of DEP guys, it's okay to bunch them up, because if you can draw him into trying to heavy flame him you can get free AROs with your DEP's. But mostly you just want to slow him down. Camouflage markers can slow him down (if he doesn't know if they might be hackers or monomine layers). Not much else will really slow him down. If you have a scary heavy infantry, like an Azra'il armed with a feuerback, or a Magister Knight in a link team, it might be worth deploying for an ARO. It will force him to take an action attacking you, and even though your ARO isn't likely to hit, you are likely to only take one wound and be able to auto-fail a guts roll and duck back out of sight before dying.

Then, once you've survived, assess whether you can kill his order pool. If you can't (and you likely won't be able to without AD troops or an impersonator), go after him with your highest burst weapons you can. Usually that's an HMG or spitfire in a link team. You need to beat his face to face rolls and force him to make as many armor rolls as possible. Eventually he'll fail, and eventually you'll score a crit or two or three. If you're fortunate enough to have a camo missile launcher or autocannon, like a tank hunter or noctifier or swiss guard, it's usually worth one camo attack shot and accepting the DA multi HMG free ARO in return.

If you do manage to knock it out of combat, don't let an engineer or helper bot get to it and bring it back to life.

[SgtHulka]

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention...Haqqislam can definitely hack tags. The Taureg Hacker + Hunzakut are an excellent team for this, with the Hunzakut deploying repeaters and the Taureg making WIP 15 combat camouflage hacking attacks. My son did that to my Charontid today, which isn't a TAG, but the principle would have been the same (and he'd have needed the same roll against most TAGs -- 9 or less).

[macbain]

Dont forget that no TAG I can think off has a MSV2+.
That means you can take their vision with a smoke grenade and then either intuitive attack through the smoke with direct templates, go into CC with multiple units or place D-Charges in CC.
I had to rely on this tactic while I was facing a cutter with TO-Camo.
Not nice....
If he is in cover -9 to hit.
Or the ariadna hacker tactic would be to use 5 galwegian highlanders droppping smoke and hacking the TAG to death. Literally hacking.
5 galwegians doing a coordinated order in CC crit on 1+.
The problem is getting them there.

[VisOne]

The Marut Alephs giant bunny TAG has MSV 2 but its the exception to the rule.

[TallonHunteR]

Yu Jing, JSA, and anyone who can take senor massacre have it made against tags if they manage to sneak in.

Yu Jing can take Neko Oyama, which from range is a normal Domaru, but when he's up close and personal...3 arm saves at half arm IF he got shooting ARO'd, if he didnt...well either walk in and have an equal chance to get squished or EMP nade his ass THEN walk in and 1 hit his tag. JSA has Neko as well as Shinobu and other Onibawan...arm 0, 1 hit kills because of mono CCW.

SM can ZVS the tag then walk up behind it a AP+EXP CC just like Neko

[Hero of Man]

When you walk up behind the TAG, can't it perform a change facing ARO since your entered its ZOC, assuming you didn't disable it first?

[VisOne]

When you walk up behind the TAG, can't it perform a change facing ARO since your entered its ZOC, assuming you didn't disable it first?

Normally YES and chance facing is an ARO by itself it doesn't allow you to then say shoot or CC until your opponent activates that miniature again.

Also a model with Martial Arts LVL 4 can stop you even doing that!

Level 4 - Empty Mind. This functions as Sixth Sense L1, and cancels out Martial Arts Skills of Levels 1-3 of opponents. It also makes opponents incapable of turning to face this figure as an ARO when he enters their ZC from behind, unless they have Sixth Sense L2.

Which is why Saito Togan, Oniwaban & Oniwaban Shinobu Kitsune are pretty decent TAG hunters. Their TO Camo + Martial Arts LVL 4 or 5 make them good for sneaking up and then ganking TAG's in the back. The Explosive and or Mono filament CCW need do the rest.

[Hero of Man]

Oh okay, thanks for the clarification.

[Section9]

Lots of options to deal with a TAG. light things on fire, and see how many ARM rolls he can fail in a row. EM or EM2 weapons are always fun, watch that overgrown power-armor suit do the dying cockroach as he fries. Hacking is always an option, but may be tough against some opponents. Glue guns are also amusing, stick his feet to the floor and call it done. If you have immobilized the TAG you can always add insult to injury and set a D-charge on the immobile model, preferably with the timer facing the pilot/vision sensors.

Then there's the sacrifice play. Coordinated order (or Link Team), preferably CLOSE so that the MultiHMG doesn't have a bonus (though watch out for the HFT on most TAGs). One of the models is going to eat an EXP round to the face barring luck, but the other one(s) will be shooting at NORMAL rolls.

Other possible shenanigans depend on your faction. Ariadna? Have you met the Ariadna hackers (Mr Autocannon, Mr AP HMG, and all their friends in the 45th Galwegian)? Combat camo from a pair of Tankhunters will teach that PanO pansy who owns the jungle.

Yu Jing? Nihao, I am from the Hac Tao detachment. TO camo and a missile launcher. Pheasants, Cranes, and Oniwaban all have freaking lightsabers (aka MonoCCW). JSA? Konnichiwa, we are a link team of Haramaki. (EM2 Blitzen on 4 models, ML on the 5th. I don't know many models that can take 8 shots from an EM2 weapon and still function, but that's what the B2 ML is for!)

I can keep going, but I hope this gives you some ideas.

[SgtHulka]

Other possible shenanigans depend on your faction. Ariadna? Have you met the Ariadna hackers (Mr Autocannon, Mr AP HMG, and all their friends in the 45th Galwegian)? Combat camo from a pair of Tankhunters will teach that PanO pansy who owns the jungle.

I'm curious because I would love me some tankhunters (and their friends the veteran kazaks) but I've never played Ariadna. Do you think the AP HMG might be better off *not* combat camo attacking? I've had success hunting TAGs with my HMG Tiger Soldier and my HMG Vector Operator, both of whom are able to consistently win the face to face roll against a TAG's burst 1 ARO. I would think the Tank Hunter would be similar, since his Camo is just like the Tiger Soldiers'/Vector Operator's mimetism. Admittedly, the Tankhunter's a lower BS by 1, so maybe that makes a big difference? It just seems like he'd be better off spending multiple orders to just shoot face to face because his combat camo probably won't kill the TAG and the TAG will definitely kill him with the return-fire explosive ARO.

The autocannon dude definitely is better off combat camo-ing, he's like a burst two missile launcher of awesomeness!

How great would be an autocannon intruder?

[Aeon]

Other possible shenanigans depend on your faction. Ariadna? Have you met the Ariadna hackers (Mr Autocannon, Mr AP HMG, and all their friends in the 45th Galwegian)? Combat camo from a pair of Tankhunters will teach that PanO pansy who owns the jungle.

I'm curious because I would love me some tankhunters (and their friends the veteran kazaks) but I've never played Ariadna. Do you think the AP HMG might be better off *not* combat camo attacking? I've had success hunting TAGs with my HMG Tiger Soldier and my HMG Vector Operator, both of whom are able to consistently win the face to face roll against a TAG's burst 1 ARO. I would think the Tank Hunter would be similar, since his Camo is just like the Tiger Soldiers'/Vector Operator's mimetism. Admittedly, the Tankhunter's a lower BS by 1, so maybe that makes a big difference? It just seems like he'd be better off spending multiple orders to just shoot face to face because his combat camo probably won't kill the TAG and the TAG will definitely kill him with the return-fire explosive ARO.

The autocannon dude definitely is better off combat camo-ing, he's like a burst two missile launcher of awesomeness!

How great would be an autocannon intruder?

Well if you make a Camo-attack its Not a face to face roll. The camo-attacking unit shoots First. yku cannot do that with mimetism inly with camo and to-camo.

[chromedog]

I've taken out TAGs with nothing but rifle armed LI (Lizard and Szally).

A mate wanted to try his dual TAG nomad list. So I ran ariadna against him. 19 models to his 9.
He took out the two missile launcher figures and the APHMG. Leaving me with a single HMG (that had every hit saved) and 15 rifle guys that saved the day.
NO link teams. Multiple crits in ARO ftf rolls. Also bait and switch tactics (move a unit out of LoF with him, so that he has to turn to face if he wants to engage - then DO the same on the opposite side).

Other times I've used a 4 man ghulam link team. Just enough for sixth sense l2. Took out a sphinx, who had moved up in order to combat camo heavy flame the team. SS made it f2f and the team critted it to death, losing 2 members. Yes, that team couldn't reform but HE lost his tag. Besides, MY scoring units were Kaplans and they could also link and had already grabbed an objective.

[Knightpiper]

Tankhunters for Ariadna, I have yet to see a TAG that likes getting a combat camo attack from an AutoCannon. Also glue guns from the Chassuers. Makes them more vulnerable to the rest of the force.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah... loading on the special characters in Infinity doesn't get you as far as it does in some other games.

I'd just like to echo what's already been said: GML, hackers, and various one-shot-kill weapons like monofilament and EM and adhesive weaponry will all stop TAGs dead.

[ARO_intheknee]

Here is an instructional video on how to take on TAGs.

It appears you require 3 things:
1. Strength of numbers and/or multiple avenues of attack
2. Lots of special weapons
3. South African Mercenaries

No. 3 may be optional, but the first two aren't necessarily. Even then, conventional weapons can and still hurt. Weight of fire works well in this game, provided you can minimise Face to Face rolls against superior opponents.

Aim to kill them in your Active, and avoid them in the Reactive as much as possible. Next, use Combat Camo wherever you can, and flank it too if possible. Lastly, don't panic; if it bleeds, you can kill it.

[Ghost]

A TAG is strong. But a TAG without many orders is not going to do a lot....

So if you run a list wihtout specific weapon, you can always focus on order givers to decrease the impact of a TAG.

[Twelvecarpileup]

I think someone already said it, but I'll repeat it.

Glue guns are great for anti TAG work. If you're Ariadna you can fire one from camo making it twice as nice.

[Marsyas]

I generally stop a TAG with puppies. Or with tankhunters wielding autocannons. Usually puppies. I've done it with adhesive launchers, but there's just something incredibly satisfying about a bunch of puppies eating a TAG, or hitting it with an anti-tank cannon, that the glueguns just don't give you.

... I've also taken down a Cutter with a group of three 45th Highlanders (with assistance from a fourth). That's only happened once, though, and it requires some explanation, as it was incredibly unlikely and required some very lucky rolls.

So, previous to this, I had AROd an enemy attack against a highlander by dropping smoke. My opponent decided to deal with the highlanders with his cutter. He had four orders left, and he figured it would be sufficient. First order positioned his cutter. Then he spent an order to do speculative fire into the smoke with the heavy flamethrower. I successfully dodged with all three highlanders. He fired again with speculative fire and I failed to dodge. I made my armor saves three times in a row. He fired again with speculative fire and I successfully dodged with all three highlanders. Then my opponent was out of orders.

On my turn, my fourth highlander (out of LoS of the TAG) did his impetuous thing to move forward and throw smoke to block the Cutter's LoS to my other three highlanders. I succeeded. My other three highlanders did their impetuous thing as a combined order. They moved forward and lobbed smoke, securing their path to the TAG. Then they did another combined order to move into melee with the TAG, went berserk, and hacked the tag to pieces, critting it three times in a row. ... It helped that my highlanders had +15 to their CC (+9 for berserk, +6 for additional models in melee), which meant that I was critting on a roll of 7-20. In exchange, I lost one Highlander to the Cutter's CC attack (both were normal rolls, because berserk).

[macfergusson]

Then he spent an order to do speculative fire into the smoke with the heavy flamethrower. I successfully dodged with all three highlanders. He fired again with speculative fire and I failed to dodge. I made my armor saves three times in a row. He fired again with speculative fire and I successfully dodged with all three highlanders. Then my opponent was out of orders.

Not to rain on your parade, but if the Cutter was firing a flamethrower through smoke, that is a Long Skill Intuitive Attack, not Speculative, but more importantly you can't Dodge without LoF unless the targets have Sixth Sense. So you would have needed to make 2 more sets of Armor saves for that to play out legally.

[Marsyas]

Not to rain on your parade, but if the Cutter was firing a flamethrower through smoke, that is a Long Skill Intuitive Attack, not Speculative, but more importantly you can't Dodge without LoF unless the targets have Sixth Sense. So you would have needed to make 2 more sets of Armor saves for that to play out legally.

Huh. You're right. It was several years ago, and we all thought it was really funny at the time, but... huh. Apparently it wasn't legal. O_O;

[macfergusson]

Not to rain on your parade, but if the Cutter was firing a flamethrower through smoke, that is a Long Skill Intuitive Attack, not Speculative, but more importantly you can't Dodge without LoF unless the targets have Sixth Sense. So you would have needed to make 2 more sets of Armor saves for that to play out legally.

Huh. You're right. It was several years ago, and we all thought it was really funny at the time, but... huh. Apparently it wasn't legal. O_O;

Quick, roll 6 more armor saves!

[Marsyas]

Quick, roll 6 more armor saves!

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4574361/
6d20.hits(15) → [19,6,15,5,3,17] = (3)

Awww!
Looks like they all retroactively died.

[macfergusson]

Nah, the 19, 15, and 17 were obviously all on the same guy, and seeing his buddies get toasted enraged him even further!

[ewok40k]

save-or-die weapons are your friend
-EM weaponry (my fave being blitzens on Riot Grrls)
-glue guns (preferably from camo, so he can't ARO)
-monofilament (Penthesilea doing drive by-TAG beheading, cool!)
a hardest thing to pull off, but most satisfying is to hack enemy TAG - and turn it against him!
a good hacker, or preferably 2 for coordinated order, plus one-roll-to-control-hack program on EVO can do the trick with reasonable hope of success

if all else fails, even linked team with HMG or MSR in active turn has decent chance of forcing enough saving throws to bring the beast down...