Cheating in Infinity

[Morze]

While Infinity grows, some less illustrous players will jump to the "bandwagon". Infinity secrecy is nice hame mechanic, but it will make it easier for some rotten egg to abuse it. How would you counter it as a opposite gamer, as a onlooker, as a tournament organizer? It's obiously mostly a problem of larger community, but I think a thread to share tips and such would be beneficial. F.e., what should be on a check list of tournament organizer, thats doing sample test in a middle of a game of large tournament?

[Pierzasty]

A few things come to mind (speaking about TOs):
- a requirement of 2-3 printed army lists - one for own use, one lists visible units and is given to the opponent, possibly a third to be given to the TO.
- Infiltration rolls / hidden deployment has to be verified by the TO, and written on the main list. Ditto for camo markers, used ammo/deployables, LT, etc.
- a roll is valid only when it's seen by at least 2 of 3 people (player A, player B, judge). And no grabbing dice to exploit this rule when an imprtant roll goes wrong

[Magno]

+1 to Pierzasty.

I've run a ton of events and cheating can be abused.

Rules at tournaments I run.

1. Leave your dice on the table for your opponent to verify. If you claim something and you can't verify it, you roll again. If you continually have to verify your dice rolls, after three verification requests, you don'treforml anymore. you just loose that die roll.
2. AD and TO record. Of you don't write down what levels of AD your troops are using, they default to their normal level. TOs can't be deployed and must wait till the next turn, from the spot the player wanted to deploy within a template.
3. Anyone busted sharing Lt or list information with other players forfeit their round.
4. No talking and assisting other players. (I've seen players do this ensure an easier opponent in the next round).
5. Discuss terrain with your opponent before the match. Any questions, I.e., "Should there be a ladder there?" settle with a die roll off.
6. No cocked dice. If you can rest another d20 ontop of it, it counts.

[smurfORnot]

while we are on it,what are some dirty tricks that some players might take to cheat on you?

[Morze]

Well, obivously there is some basic stuff like cheating on rolls or shuffling lists or orders. Overall I think Infinity require lots of trust to be smooth and enjoyable, checking everythink you opponent do leads to tense situation. A gentlemens (and occasional ladies, I guess) game, if you prefer. I myself just use phrases like "my paracommando comes from that table quarter, as you can see from here, if you wish" while swaying my notes. Never have my opponent actually looked those.

[Noirfatale]

in friendly game I dont care much but when in a tourney or a campaing I want to see the number CLEARLY on your dice.

My dice are HUGE and super CLEAR, I dont care if its your supper lucky dice that come from the first box of D&D, If I cant see the number from my side of the table, its not good.

period

[Pierzasty]

My dice are HUGE and super CLEAR, I dont care if its your supper lucky dice that come from the first box of D&D, If I cant see the number from my side of the table, its not good.

I hear you. My super lucky dice are dark-translucent with bright white numbers, so no problem. My friend's, however, are yellow semi-transparent with lots of glitter inside. And white numbers

[Berjiz]

My dice are HUGE and super CLEAR, I dont care if its your supper lucky dice that come from the first box of D&D, If I cant see the number from my side of the table, its not good.

I hear you. My super lucky dice are dark-translucent with bright white numbers, so no problem. My friend's, however, are yellow semi-transparent with lots of glitter inside. And white numbers

Yellow/white transperant dices with white numbers are just pain, I wonder why anyone ever buys them.

[Elfenlied]

I have a friend whose d20 is made of translucent dark green plastic, with the numbers laser-etched on the surface. Needless to say, that die isn't even readable without close examination.

[Vorheart]

Tell your friend with dark green translucent dice to take some white primer and brush it on each side of his dice, wiping it right after with a finger. This will leave white color in recesses and the surfaces will still be semi transparent. I actually bought same dice, only in light and dark blue colors (also translucent, laser etched). The white color on dark translucent dice is actually very easily visible.

Light colored translucent dice are a pain though. Even using contrasting colors on them is a pain as they create too many shadows and bright areas from reflections and it's just hard to see what's on them. Friend has very light green color ones and he's painted the numbers white. He has to pick them up sometimes to see what's on them. -_-

So for the dark green translucent ones, just tell him to color the numbers white and wipe the excess color with his fingers. He'll have easily readable dice in less than half an hour.

[Noirfatale]

how about buying dice you can read easily?

my d20 are 2 inch wide in pano blue, red or yellow with BIG white number.

[JBRocky]

My dice are HUGE and super CLEAR, I dont care if its your supper lucky dice that come from the first box of D&D, If I cant see the number from my side of the table, its not good.

I hear you. My super lucky dice are dark-translucent with bright white numbers, so no problem. My friend's, however, are yellow semi-transparent with lots of glitter inside. And white numbers

Friend of mine has some dice like that he used for Warmachine till we told him No. Don't think he was chating but still nobody could read his dice.

[Locksmith]

I like to have my opponent turn around, place my TO piece, and snap a pic with my phone camera. Quicker than looking for a pen and paper, since most of my lists are on my phone/tablet anyway.
AD2/3 can work the same way. If it's going to be 2, snap a pic with the model next to the template. If it's 3, he's inside the template. (only the relationship to the template matters, not the placement of the template.)

[Pierzasty]

I like to have my opponent turn around, place my TO piece, and snap a pic with my phone camera

And if there's no HD, snap a pic of his head as it's the only place they exist

[Morze]

I like to have my opponent turn around, place my TO piece, and snap a pic with my phone camera

And if there's no HD, snap a pic of his head as it's the only place they exist

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

Is it really practical to have third party confirmation of all the secret information? Some lists have quite a lot of it, and most of the important stuff can be covered by photography and notes.

I prefer to say that any amount of cocked dice is cocked dice - if there is any doubt at all that it is a "swede", it should be rerolled. This also applies when the bump into terrain.

[Pierzasty]

It's practical if you have a third party handy (like a store employee that's watching anyway). As for cocked dice, I only count dice that are perfectly flat, no arguing about if that one lying halfway on a stack of cards 0.5 mm high or almost flat but propped on some base counts. No it doesn't count, reroll even if it's a crit for me. This is of course agreed upon before the game.

[kidterminal]

It's practical if you have a third party handy (like a store employee that's watching anyway). As for cocked dice, I only count dice that are perfectly flat, no arguing about if that one lying halfway on a stack of cards 0.5 mm high or almost flat but propped on some base counts. No it doesn't count, reroll even if it's a crit for me. This is of course agreed upon before the game.

I do the same. Dice trays help in this because they often prevent cocked dice.

[jmeis982]

For dice rolling I actually went as far as to buy a box for it. I got a wooden cigar box for less than $10 shipped, with a clasp and the top and bottom lined with felt. Keeps the rolls slightly more random and keeps the dice from bumping into terrain, models or off the table.

[kidterminal]

I used to have on of those leather backgammon trays. Very posh.

[MarcoSkoll]

Yellow/white transperant dices with white numbers are just pain, I wonder why anyone ever buys them.

I bought some. Mostly so my Infinity dice were a nice little rainbow - Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue, Violet and "White".
However, the yellow and white ones have since been repainted into black numbers. As there's still the white underlayer from the original numbers, this works reasonably well (I've seen dice painted black without that, and having the black reflect and refract through the die makes them just as indecipherable).

But I've never found them that dire - I'm more likely to take a dislike to speckled or marbled dice more than transparent ones. Many of those just come in a colour combination that might as well be camouflage for the numbers on them.

[JTM93]

My group uses a "Dice Pit". That is a Box or such that all dice are rolled in for each player.

The Hidden Stuff is settled by us each having a Rough Map of the Table and Marking the General Areas of our troops.

[Pacific]

I think I was pretty unlucky in that in the 3 of the games I have played at an event (i.e. when I haven't known the person I am playing) one of those was against someone who stretched things beyond breaking point; 32" guns shooting 34", x ray bullets going through cover, and even one unit that could turn back time, and save himself despite a roll that happened 3 miniature move-shoots later.*

I suppose with this kind of thing (and perhaps reflects on my character, that I'm a bit soft!) that I can't be arsed to have a confrontation over something like this, argue the toss or whatever. I've played people like it in other games I have played and would much rather just let it slide over me; in this case, terrain was poor against an unpainted army (so nothing really going for it at all) so I finished the game as quickly and as efficiently as possible, smiled and nodded, and conceded at the first possible moment. Fortunately, the other games I have played were against what I would term 'normal' opponents, and made up for it.

I will say however that with Infinity there is a bit less ambiguity, so unless you have the situation above (when a cheat is playing a push-over/someone who isn't bothered!), my guess would be that you get a lot less cheating than in games that have far less water-tight rules (such as 40k for instance).

* I did however take a modicum of satisfaction from the guy getting his ass nailed to a wall in the next game, playing against someone who wasn't prepared to 'let it slide!'