The 20x20 version 2.0 Feedback Thread

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I have made a new version of the 20x20 system, which can be downloaded here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6YAvw ... view?pli=1


The new version uses 10 Objective Points instead of 8. I changed this to be closer to ITS. People who want to use their classified card decks can do so instead of rolling for a secondary mission.

Four scenarios have been exchanged. the new ones are: Collect Debris, Secure the High Ground, Intercept Enemy Interrogation and Wetwork. There have also been changes made to the secondary missions. The reason for those changes was to have simpler missions with the same objectives for both players.

People who have played the previous version of 20 x 20 (Thank you, I hope you enjoy!) should give the old missions a good read, because changes have been made. Unfortunately, a little bit of more text have crept in, but I don t think the missions are more complicated than they were before.

The difference between 20x20 and ITS remains: In 20x20, you are not obliged to use specialists. In fact, 11 of the 20 primary missions do not need them at all. For the other 9, it is just an advantage to have them.

Some people who look at the mission chart may now feel that doctors are not so important, because there is only one primary and one secondary mission that rewards the use of doctors. Well, that is not true when you look at the details of missions. Often, Objective Points are scored if a trooper is in a null state. Thus, doctors and paramedics can help to get a trooper back into action and thus deprive your opponent of points!

Lieutenants also play a bigger role in 20x20 as they have scoring powers in some missions.

Please let me know what you think about my scenario system!

[el_presidente]

I loved the previous version! looking forward to give these a go

[funmomiji]

Cool, i will try it this weekend.

[Pacific]

Many thanks for posting these on the main page

They look like a lot of fun, look forward to giving them a go!

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I hope you enjoy!

does anyone understand the wetwork mission? I guess it is a bit hard to get your head around it. Maybe I should write a bit about how it is intended to work.

[el_presidente]

I think I do understand the mission, but haven't played it yet, so we'll see

[Prophet_of_Doom]

thank you, Senor presidente! That alone is already helpful.

[MARC C]

The local Montreal meta and I will soon be looking into this interesting system.
I just posted the link to the PDF.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I just came to realize that the term "forward zone" does not officially exist! I do not know how I dreamt that one up, but now I stand embarrassed!

With "forward zone" I meant the 12 " in between the own deployment zone and the central line. Or the part of the own table half which is not your deployment zone, to put this in other words.

The document has been updated to get rid of this forward zone issue. I don t think anyone needs to reprint their copy just because of that. Sorry for the confusion.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I have updated the system today. I will playtest a new mission and will probably publish version 2.5 before Christmas.

The most important change is that you can basically not attempt WIP rolls that would, directly or indirectly, earn you objective points. Not with combined orders, antipodes, or remote presences. i recommend playing like this from now on. 

Of course, the term forward zone has also disappeared. If you have copies with that term, you can pretty much replace it with: "enemy table half which is not the deployment zone."

People who have recently printed out the system will probably not have to do that again.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

There is a new version now up for download. The new file is also called 2.0, but the text clearly says 2.5.

you find it here:

http://www.data-sphere.net/the-20x20-in ... rsion-2-0/

There is only minor changes, I don t think one necessarily needs to print out the document again if one really does not want to.

These are the changes made:

- No multiple scoring using coordinated orders, antipodes or bots.
- Rewording of forward zone
- New mission “Retrieve the Remotes” to emphasize the role of engineers even further
- Quadrant Control has been removed. This changed the numbering, of course.
- Triangulation has now FO as the only favoured specialist.
- Clarification in Destroy Beacon that the beacon is a scenery item. Slight change in victory conditions.
- Clarification that only engineers get bonus to repair drop ships
- Mission 1 Access supplies: Troopers can now get medikits and weapons out of the crates.
- A few other clarifications In the secondary missions 12 & 14
- Slight rewording and clarifications in Teseum Run and Secure High Ground.
- Launching Sequence now only has 3 Game Rounds.
- Secondary mission 17 now also favours Forward Observers. 
- Intercept Enemy Communication does not allow hacking attacks against non hackers any more.

I am sorry if some people may now feel disgruntled because there is yet another version. However, if I would playtest and debug this to perfect, I would probably never release anything. Thank you to everybody who has contributed to improving this scenario system with their feedback.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

It is version 2.6 now. I exchanged Breakthrough (Mission 2) with Border Clash. Yep, there is a reason why both scenarios start with a B!

[Prophet_of_Doom]

After a looong time, I spotted two mistakes:

Triangulation: remove the plural of corners in the victory conditions. You get 2 OP for placing a beacon in the left corner and 2 op for placing one in the right corner of the enemy DZ.
That happened when I changed the mission over and mindlessly copied and pasted.

Collect Dog Tags: you can only collect tags off enemy troopers.

Furthermore,once I get back to my pc in february, I will make the slight change to Seize Hardware and Save the Scientists that a player in retreat and flee with a scientist or hardware piece and score this way.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I just updated to version 2.7!

Changes made:

- Triangulation: typo corrected in the victory conditions
- Save the Scientists, Retrieve Remotes, Seize Hardware: Players in a retreat situation can now flee with the booty and score OP this way.
- Escape with Dropship: Slight change to where and when the dropship can be attacked.
- Collect Dog Tags: Removed an old oversight. You only score for collecting enemy dog tags.
- Hold your Ground: Changed the wording a bit hopefully making the intention clearer.

Thank you for reporting bugs and please keep on doing so! It is not easy writing instructions in a second language without anyone proofreading.

[Errhile]

I said it before, I'll say it again: the various Objective Markers should, in my opinion, have a given size. Or at least suggested size. Preferrably in Silhouette values - for now, only Civillians (using standard S2 human-sized models) and the Dropship (for which there is a dedicated model) are defined, if memory serves me.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I said it before, I'll say it again: the various Objective Markers should, in my opinion, have a given size. Or at least suggested size. Preferrably in Silhouette values - for now, only Civillians (using standard S2 human-sized models) and the Dropship (for which there is a dedicated model) are defined, if memory serves me.

Do you think the merits would outweigh the downside of a rigid definition? If I define it, people will be discouraged to use what they have. Look at the GMC video using the 40k model as a dropship. That worked fine. If I write 40mm objective marker and someone does not have one, they may think they cant play the mission.

Do the various antennae / crates / consoles made by the different companies fit the Silhouette descriptions? Ideally, I want people to use those!

The markers for collect Debris are defined as S0.

But hey, no problem, I can easily change about that. Version 3.0 is due when N3HS is out.

I have finally found people willing to proofread for me. And there is someone who wants to translate 20x20 into Spanish!

[Errhile]

But if they are not defined... a situation from a recent game:

We were having an "Investigate Alien Artifact" game, Corregidor on Corregidor. Using the Micro Arts' reisin Alien Artifact model (which is somewhat see-through...), mounted to a 40mm base.

And we had first a na S2 Bandit trying to get a Total cover from a rooftop-posted Intruder behind it.
Then, S6 McMurrough trying to hide from a S6 Gecko.

And we had to assume the Alien Artifact is S6 too, for otherwise the Dog Warrior wouldn't be able to get Cover at all...
Not to mention - we do have a handful of objective markers, made / bought back in the days of Campaign Paradiso. Which tended to define them somewhat (though not to the level of Silhouettes). We miss some that would be useful for 20x20... but I keep from getting them bought / made, for I don't really know how big should these be.

As for people not having proper-sized markers... wouldn't it be possible to make printable markers with proper graphics? Print & cut them, glue them onto cardboard, glue that upright onto a spare base, voila! (or even, if you're not that cheap - go to a laser-cutting service and have them cut and etched in acrylic!).

I'm not a computer graphics guy myself, but I guess it wouldn't be that difficult to find one that would get the job done. Could ever find one myself - provided you tell us how big should each objective marker be...

[Prophet_of_Doom]

But if they are not defined... a situation from a recent game:

We were having an "Investigate Alien Artifact" game, Corregidor on Corregidor. Using the Micro Arts' reisin Alien Artifact model (which is somewhat see-through...), mounted to a 40mm base.

And we had first a na S2 Bandit trying to get a Total cover from a rooftop-posted Intruder behind it.
Then, S6 McMurrough trying to hide from a S6 Gecko.

And we had to assume the Alien Artifact is S6 too, for otherwise the Dog Warrior wouldn't be able to get Cover at all...
Not to mention - we do have a handful of objective markers, made / bought back in the days of Campaign Paradiso. Which tended to define them somewhat (though not to the level of Silhouettes). We miss some that would be useful for 20x20... but I keep from getting them bought / made, for I don't really know how big should these be.

As for people not having proper-sized markers... wouldn't it be possible to make printable markers with proper graphics? Print & cut them, glue them onto cardboard, glue that upright onto a spare base, voila! (or even, if you're not that cheap - go to a laser-cutting service and have them cut and etched in acrylic!).

I'm not a computer graphics guy myself, but I guess it wouldn't be that difficult to find one that would get the job done. Could ever find one myself - provided you tell us how big should each objective marker be...

My idea was simply that you check whether your models get cover behind the artifact the same way that you get cover behind anything else. If you do not have the artifact model from Microarts, you could use a crate or an antenna, and get cover accordingly. If you don t have any suitable model, you get back to using an objective marker. I'd suggest the big 40mm one for this mission.
Now if I write that people should use the 40mm OM, then they would feel dissuaded from even using the alien artifact model, wouldn't they?

I think using the objective markers should only be a last resort to when you don t have suitable models. I like the idea of having models with a physical presence as the objectives.

I would happily suggest marker sizes, if someone points me to a good solution for this problem. I have not found one yet.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I have looked at it and realised that I would suggest the 40mm objective markers for every mission apart from collect debris. Wouldn t the terrain pieces not be too small for that?

[Errhile]

The problem in that exact case (MAS objective markers) is - they do fit well on 40mm bases, but they aren't 40mm in diameter themselves. In most cases, they aren't even round!

Remind me next week, so I'll take a photo camera to the FLGS (we keep all the stuff stashed there) and snap a few pics of the consoles, alien artifacts and what else we have (we don't have all of them, but that's a part of the problem as I mentioned ) next to actual models.

But then - declaring Silhouette values for objectives solves that. If the Console is, say, S 4, then it is a cylinder 40mm wide, and adequately wide: you can compare Silhouettes to learn if a model gets Total Cover behind it, only Partial Cover, or in a given situation, no cover at all. And how much does the actual console model fill the 40mm base becomes a matter of no issue.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

So you prefer playing with imaginary LOS blockers instead just taking the models you have and using them as LOS blocker wysiwyg?

I have changed the wording of the description of the objective markers in the rules section of my document. I realised that most markers should be 40mm. Therefore I wrote that people should use the big ones unless otherwise stated, but are encouraged to use models instead. If models are used, they provide cover wysiwyg. Don t the official rules state that objective markers do not provide cover?

[Errhile]

As I told you - the pieces were attached to 40mm bases. They don't fill these bases...


...aww, sorry, but I stop here. I feel like i'm chasing my own tail tring to explain that.
Running in circles.
So forgive me, but i'll try to get back to the topic another day, with a more clear head than now. Otherwise I could, possibly, get into a rant - and that would serve nobody...

[Prophet_of_Doom]

No, I have to apologize to you - I did not read your posts properly and overlooked the part that the microarts models are attached to 40mm bases.

That makes a lot of sense to play it this way. Maybe I should take this on board.

[el_presidente]

Over here we always play with 40mm objectives and use the actual model (of the objective) to determine cover. Which in practice means that only S2 tend to get cover from objectives.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

Atm I changed the rules section to say that if objective markers are used, they are the 40mm ones which count as S0. People are encouraged to use terrain, which is wysiwyg. In practice, that will mean cover for S2 in most cases. People can, of course, agree to something else.

Errhiles option is thus very valid, the size of cover probably best being S3 to represen the size of the terrain.

I just checked the N3 book and it was more unclear than my rules imho. I dont want to dissuade ppl from using their own stuff - I seriously had people writing me that they couldn t play collect debris because they don t have 12 markers or investigate artefact because they only have one circular template nor any mission requiring a civilian due to lack of appropriate models.

[Errhile]

How do you feel about adding a set of printable objectives, then?

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I would certainly do this if I had the design skills for those.
There are consoles, alien artefacts, elevators, beacons, teseum mines, debris, ammo caches, supply crates, antennas, triangulation markers, hardware tokens, S3 remotes.


If anyone is willing to help me with this stuff, I d be more than happy to oblige. My idea is that there should be a third edition after HS comes out. 3rd ed should be without much modification, but completely clean of mistakes and with a better visual design, including diagrams for objective placement etc. The idea of seperate markers fits right in there. As I mentioned, the tokens should almost all be 40mm, and if your preferred method is applied, have S3 silhouettes.

Currently, I am updating the missions I have kicked out to ne relaeased in a seperate document.

[Prophet_of_Doom]

I am getting a bit concerned considering the GMG battle reports and the fact that there are Infinity 20x20 tournaments. I wanted to do something about the option of just annihilating the opponent and then scoring a single OP in order to win. 

Version 2.8 is uploaded!  

Changes:

- Clarification in the rules of the size of the objective markers (OM)

- Clear the Mines has been exchanged by Photograph the Enemy due to balance concerns. 

- Investigators of Alien Artefacts can now flee in retreat and still score OP for having survived.

- Retreating troopers can still occupy buildings, the centre, or high ground. They can even secure supply crates! 

As you can see, I am reacting to criticism and do my best to make this system better. Please keep on supplying me with feedback!

[el_presidente]

Great stuff! I really appreciate the effort you put into this. I'll let you know if I find anything weird