Data Sphere

I have been able to get a few games of N3 in, and from my American perspective, I am very pleased. What say you players from different countries other than my own? I am really interested in a world wide view on the topic.

So far so good in the Netherlands. The game became much more clear and cleaned up. Most of it in the details. Camo timing, can't hide a Cutter under a 25mm token, scattering set, although I miss the randomness. It's much easier to roll into for new people.
I like it!

Well from us in the Uk its been fine to date. Only managed a couple of small games so far and helping with a slow grow at my local club so hoping that'll get us into more depth.

I think its the extra bits that will take a little getting used too.

Positive comments from here in South Africa, although we've yet to properly get into the game again. There's a lot to like and I think it will be much easier to encourage new players. The rules are long but mostly because of repetition, layout and cross-referencing.

The trick is finding all the little differences... what stays the same and what changes slightly (such as Sniper Rifles now firing Shock ammo).

I'm reserving my final verdict for after I see the HS/CP rules translation PDF and the full army list, but for now:

I was very wary of the streamlining = dumbing down, but it seems we've avoided this effect. Most rules have been cleaned up, I love the weapon trait keyword system, hacking and other specialists are now actually useful, and it looks like someone actually paid attention to what was broken in the last edition, went through the whole thing and fixed the flaws.

That's not to say N3 is flawless. Dispersion manages to be even dumber than in N2, RAW silhouettes are still based on models' bases for some reason (Basegate WTF), the release timing was a bit of a CF, and forcing the continued separation of rulebooks is plain ridiculous. Still, I was cautiously optimistic before N3's release and I remain so now, waiting for the non-existent PDFs.

Pierzasty wrote:I'm reserving my final verdict for after I see the HS/CP rules translation PDF and the full army list, but for now:

I was very wary of the streamlining = dumbing down, but it seems we've avoided this effect. Most rules have been cleaned up, I love the weapon trait keyword system, hacking and other specialists are now actually useful, and it looks like someone actually paid attention to what was broken in the last edition, went through the whole thing and fixed the flaws.

That's not to say N3 is flawless. Dispersion manages to be even dumber than in N2, RAW silhouettes are still based on models' bases for some reason (Basegate WTF), the release timing was a bit of a CF, and forcing the continued separation of rulebooks is plain ridiculous. Still, I was cautiously optimistic before N3's release and I remain so now, waiting for the non-existent PDFs.

Same here.
My first feedback is: Up to now, the rules are really good. Though it looks like we'll still need another huge-ish FAQ. Most of the rules changes are really nice. I'm not too fond of the really great increase in CC effectiveness but the rules work.

All in all, I just love N3 and the players I know share this feeling.

Harlekin wrote:
Same here.
My first feedback is: Up to now, the rules are really good. Though it looks like we'll still need another huge-ish FAQ. Most of the rules changes are really nice. I'm not too fond of the really great increase in CC effectiveness but the rules work.

All in all, I just love N3 and the players I know share this feeling.

What is it you don't like about the effectiveness of CC? It seems to be a consensus among 2nd-players CC was unrealistically ineffective in the previous edition. And from what I've heard it still is the less favorable option unless you have CC specialist.

And one more thing: I'd like to know why this thread is presented as USA vs the rest of the world. I wasn't aware we were competing.

Pierzasty wrote:And one more thing: I'd like to know why this thread is presented as USA vs the rest of the world. I wasn't aware we were competing.

All dem foreigners y'know. 'Murica.

Loved CC in N2, will love CC in N3. Yes it's more difficult, just means it has more flair. Related concept: cherry tapping.

Anyway, this bit of the Netherlands is also pleased with the new rules. I'll echo the 'why is country/continent relevant' sentiment though, I mean it's not like we're so culturally/linguistically seperate that we'd read the rules differently.. right?

Mistake Not wrote:I mean it's not like we're so culturally/linguistically seperate that we'd read the rules differently.. right?

Exactly. I try not to subscribe to the "stupid Americans"-type stereotypes, unless repeatedly proven otherwise.

And back to the topic: I love the new LT options, that'll definitely shake the list-building meta. Not only 0-SWC LI LT, but HMG LTs, and things like HMG or Hacker/Tinbot LT loadouts on Charontid.

Pierzasty wrote:And one more thing: I'd like to know why this thread is presented as USA vs the rest of the world. I wasn't aware we were competing.

Well, there is one major cultural disconnect that I've seen: Americans assume that something not expressly prohibited is permitted, while most Europeans and Asians appear to assume that something not expressly permitted is prohibited.

Which makes for a really major difference in rules interpretation. "The rules don't say I can't do X" versus "the rules don't say I can do X."

Scorch wrote:What is it you don't like about the effectiveness of CC? It seems to be a consensus among 2nd-players CC was unrealistically ineffective in the previous edition. And from what I've heard it still is the less favorable option unless you have CC specialist.

CC is almost unavoidable now. Every infiltrating, camo'd CC-specialist and every IMP model just made it into CC in all of our games. That's just a bit too much imho.
And the non-camo/IMP non-smoke wielder CC units still pay for something they'll never use.
While it's still 1d20 vs 1d20 it's still ok in my book, but I'd prefer InfiNity being a game about gunning things down. You know, like a scifi tabletop in the near future should be like...

Okay. I can see that being a preference.

I personally am happy CC really became something for those that are specialized in CC. Fiday, Ninjas, Knights, etc. They should be lethal on the CC side I think. CC in real life is lethal as hell, especially when the person that wields the weapon knows where to stick the pointy end. Causing rapid blood loss, deep wounds and shock amazingly fast.

But I can see how it becomes a bit of a no-brainier when the units are warbands and don't have the tools to get into CC.

Quick aside... Ninjas are one of those units that pays for the CC "specialization". Even paying 27 points for a Tactical Bow ninja is quite a lot when compared to a Croc Man.

That said, getting to an effective CC26 and ripping apart an Akahl was one of the highlights of my first night of N3. That and an 11 point Grunt surviving 3 separate active turn attacks...

... just outside my opponent's deployment zone.

All-in-all, we liked a lot of the changes here in the College Station meta. Weapon traits were a MAJOR help in figuring out rules and how things worked.

The only real bug we could find was the "Silent" trait. We made the assumption that the reactive player still declares his ARO during normal ARO declaration, but didn't get to roll for it until after the Ninja had shot? *shrug* That one interaction was weird. Had a ninja attack a fusilier from behind within ZoC with a Tactical Bow using Surprise Shot. Range was just in 8". Could anyone explain?

From p106:

'This means that these enemies must delay their ARO declaration until after the Attack is resolved.'

It's the last remaining bit of timing that doesn't fit into the more defined Order/ARO sequence.

Thanks, Ian! Much appreciated.

I must've missed that little bit while we were playing.

Scorch wrote: CC in real life is lethal as hell, especially when the person that wields the weapon knows where to stick the pointy end. Causing rapid blood loss, deep wounds and shock amazingly fast.

"In real life" CC is total crap compared to lethalness of handguns - and how easy those are to use. As being "lucky" (not a tiny bit) with the experience of being stabbed once, I can tell you, that CC is anything but lethal. But it hurts.
I know, there are people who get shot. But in general the trauma caused by bullets is far worse to those of hand-to-hand combat. Swords are quite ok, but even with about 15 years of active Martial Arts training, I would bet a single Euro on my sorry ass, when I face a fat soldier armed with a pistol 2 meters away.
In modern warfare, CC makes absolutely no sense at all except for very very special cases.

When it comes to GITS and modern SciFi movies on the other hand... well, there has to be some Kung Fu action in it, hasn't it?

"In real life" melee attacks can actually be very deadly. Any type of edged weapon (knife, broken bottle) can cause sever bleeding and loss in blood pressure. It won't necessarily kill you right away, but if you're brain doesn't get oxygenated blood, you're out cold in 3-5 seconds. In addition to decreased blood pressure, such weapons can also sever tendons. Again, not immediately lethal, but you're a sitting duck if you can't hold a weapon. Also, if someone is disemboweled, they will trip up in their own guts, and won't be able to stand upright as their internals help with the support of your upper body (think pillow stuffed into a back pack).

I recently went to a handgun range with a friend (he's ~5 yr in the military, I've done some trap & skeet and deer hunting). At 5 m he missed the paper with his first shot (paper size ~11"x24").

I'm not trying to discredit you're unfortunate experience, but CC can be far more deadly than it seems.

Harlekin wrote:

Scorch wrote: CC in real life is lethal as hell, especially when the person that wields the weapon knows where to stick the pointy end. Causing rapid blood loss, deep wounds and shock amazingly fast.

"In real life" CC is total crap compared to lethalness of handguns - and how easy those are to use. As being "lucky" (not a tiny bit) with the experience of being stabbed once, I can tell you, that CC is anything but lethal. But it hurts.
I know, there are people who get shot. But in general the trauma caused by bullets is far worse to those of hand-to-hand combat. Swords are quite ok, but even with about 15 years of active Martial Arts training, I would bet a single Euro on my sorry ass, when I face a fat soldier armed with a pistol 2 meters away.

Your instructors must not be assisting the police with their "7-meter rule" training. Any live person with a sharp object is a deadly threat to an individual with a holstered firearm if the person with the blade is within 21 feet (~7m). As in, can close in, attack, and kill or severely injure the officer before the officer draws his weapon. No fancy shoulder rolls or anything to stay out of the line of fire. A straight-in charge. Even my fat, out of shape, and broken-backed butt can close fast enough to apply a 3" blade knife to any one of several immediately life-threatening points on a body. And honestly, I'd probably try to hit 2 or 3 of them, then take the gun and really go to town.

And I've never had formal military CQB training.

In modern warfare, CC makes absolutely no sense at all except for very very special cases.

Did you not hear about the time the Brits fixed bayonets and CHARGED a mob of Afghans in ~2003 or 04? No, not in 1903 or 04, sometime THIS CENTURY, with those stubby L85 rifles (and only two men of each fireteam actually with bayonets!)

When it comes to GITS and modern SciFi movies on the other hand... well, there has to be some Kung Fu action in it, hasn't it?

Looks good and is rather indicative of what happens when in close quarters. There is a reason that the various militaries still train in bayonet drills, and special ops types train even more in close-quarters work.

Section9, in Infinity one assumes the soldiers have the main gun or pistol ready. But in Infinity (and real world) there is armour (and in Infinity, up to HI/TAG level), so you can risk eating some pistol bullets and then smash the other guy with something pointy (and making the rest of enemies think twice about shooting, because you are too near one of them now). Anything goes in a "life or death".

CC can be lethal in real world, not long ago local news covered some deaths, and all involved were knifes and sticks; sometimes the killer it's the stupidest of the injuries. In a game, based around video games and movies, a bit of extra "flash" is not so bad. Movies could also learn to pick the flashy parts of reality too and drop the nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvCvOC2VwDc who could guess this is from old books and doable? Why insist in getting cover behind a car door, when all but the engine block is too thin to stop bullets? And so on.

Section9 wrote:

Harlekin wrote:

Scorch wrote: CC in real life is lethal as hell, especially when the person that wields the weapon knows where to stick the pointy end. Causing rapid blood loss, deep wounds and shock amazingly fast.

"In real life" CC is total crap compared to lethalness of handguns - and how easy those are to use. As being "lucky" (not a tiny bit) with the experience of being stabbed once, I can tell you, that CC is anything but lethal. But it hurts.
I know, there are people who get shot. But in general the trauma caused by bullets is far worse to those of hand-to-hand combat. Swords are quite ok, but even with about 15 years of active Martial Arts training, I would bet a single Euro on my sorry ass, when I face a fat soldier armed with a pistol 2 meters away.

Your instructors must not be assisting the police with their "7-meter rule" training. Any live person with a sharp object is a deadly threat to an individual with a holstered firearm if the person with the blade is within 21 feet (~7m). As in, can close in, attack, and kill or severely injure the officer before the officer draws his weapon. No fancy shoulder rolls or anything to stay out of the line of fire. A straight-in charge. Even my fat, out of shape, and broken-backed butt can close fast enough to apply a 3" blade knife to any one of several immediately life-threatening points on a body. And honestly, I'd probably try to hit 2 or 3 of them, then take the gun and really go to town.

And I've never had formal military CQB training.

In modern warfare, CC makes absolutely no sense at all except for very very special cases.

Did you not hear about the time the Brits fixed bayonets and CHARGED a mob of Afghans in ~2003 or 04? No, not in 1903 or 04, sometime THIS CENTURY, with those stubby L85 rifles (and only two men of each fireteam actually with bayonets!)

When it comes to GITS and modern SciFi movies on the other hand... well, there has to be some Kung Fu action in it, hasn't it?

Looks good and is rather indicative of what happens when in close quarters. There is a reason that the various militaries still train in bayonet drills, and special ops types train even more in close-quarters work.

One cannot compare civilian martial arts and common knife-wielding thuggery to military martial arts and the earnest desire to kill someone. Even an untrained cvilian can knock you to the floor and stab you until you're dead. And even a shallow knife wound can be lethal - 1" of penetration (longer than the common swiss army knife) is all you need to reach most of the major arteries - most stab wounds are superficial and do not reach the hollow or solid organs.

Mob of Blondes wrote:Section9, in Infinity one assumes the soldiers have the main gun or pistol ready.

Yeah, and every single nation's special ops troops train extensively in close combat techniques.

Because even a silenced pistol can be too loud, sometimes.

Frack, I know of a Navy SEAL whose favorite weapon was the straight razor. Damn sneaky SOB. Reminds me, I need to drop a note to a friend of mine, make sure he's still among the living after ~10 years as a SEAL.

Anything goes in a "life or death".

Yeah. Know what the biggest killer in WW1 actually was, as far as causing wounds resulting in death goes? Not Gas, not artillery, not machineguns. The freaking shovel.

CC can be lethal in real world, not long ago local news covered some deaths, and all involved were knifes and sticks; sometimes the killer it's the stupidest of the injuries. In a game, based around video games and movies, a bit of extra "flash" is not so bad. Movies could also learn to pick the flashy parts of reality too and drop the nonsense.

I dunno, I kinda like that movies show stupid crap that tends to break wrists. I just wish the damn gangbangers learned how to hit the target they want, not that poor girl 3 blocks to the left of the guys getting "shot at"

Having now had some discussions about N3.. I can say with confidence that I want an FAQ already.

Especially when it comes to Stealth. HI shouldn't be able to sneak through hacking zones because they're sneaky.
Also why are Hackers no longer Repeaters? Have they gotten stingy with their 'nets? I liked the innate hacker synergy..

Mistake Not wrote:Having now had some discussions about N3.. I can say with confidence that I want an FAQ already.

Especially when it comes to Stealth. HI shouldn't be able to sneak through hacking zones because they're sneaky.
Also why are Hackers no longer Repeaters? Have they gotten stingy with their 'nets? I liked the innate hacker synergy..

Of the various things that need FAQs, I don't see how those are in any way unclear. FAQ isn't for "I don't like this, change it" requests...

Well, the HI becoming invisible to Repeaters because of MA1 _IS_ strange.
And an FAQ is indeed needed - but mostly because of other reasons.

The hacker NOTSHARING thing isn't unclear, just very very strange.

Stealth.. well. You can sneak up on someone who can't see you but hacking works without seeing. Stealth doesn't work on deployables except repeaters because it's the hacker who can't 'see' them coming but that's not how computer screens work, you can't just move in a way that makes you less of a blip. So basically how does not-needing-LoS Hacking interact with if-no-LoS-Stealth?
Some say this is clear, hacking and repeaters are nullified by Stealth. I say hacking doesn't mention it at all neither do repeaters, which makes it seem to me like an oversight. Sure it's clear, in the usual Infinity way of 'probably..' but that FAQ had better come quick.

Oversight, or oversimplification for game reasons. You could say hacking is heavy magic, replace all range guns with small spells, and play it in fantasy world.

At some point, it would be plain better to not try to attach fluff to things, playing "red cube moves 4, can attack at range 30 with 10 in the die to hit your red cylinder, behind your blue cube there", because they start to sound silly, like grenades that don't spit smoke if they fail.

And those that want to remind me about scatter giving a bonus for near hits, they should remember shotguns got a +6 at shortest range so "easy" weapons are already there, or that scatter could give a +3 bonus (ARM, dodge, whatever). And that it will also teach people to not use grenades near your own people, now you have nothing to lose.

So just get FAQs about rule doubts caused by draft style, but don't try to put common sense into them.

Section9 wrote:

Mob of Blondes wrote:Section9, in Infinity one assumes the soldiers have the main gun or pistol ready.

Yeah, and every single nation's special ops troops train extensively in close combat techniques.

Because even a silenced pistol can be too loud, sometimes.

Frack, I know of a Navy SEAL whose favorite weapon was the straight razor. Damn sneaky SOB. Reminds me, I need to drop a note to a friend of mine, make sure he's still among the living after ~10 years as a SEAL.

Anything goes in a "life or death".

Yeah. Know what the biggest killer in WW1 actually was, as far as causing wounds resulting in death goes? Not Gas, not artillery, not machineguns. The freaking shovel.

CC can be lethal in real world, not long ago local news covered some deaths, and all involved were knifes and sticks; sometimes the killer it's the stupidest of the injuries. In a game, based around video games and movies, a bit of extra "flash" is not so bad. Movies could also learn to pick the flashy parts of reality too and drop the nonsense.

I dunno, I kinda like that movies show stupid crap that tends to break wrists. I just wish the damn gangbangers learned how to hit the target they want, not that poor girl 3 blocks to the left of the guys getting "shot at"

Mmm. One of my brother-in-laws was killed by stray gunfire from a gangbanger shootout. In Canada. As for stab wounds not being lethal, there was a wargamer in our community stabbed once with a knife in the chest. Died on the scene. The killer claimed it was self-defence, got off scott free due to lack of evidence (and probably piss-poor investigation). At least Pistorius got a jail sentence.

Mistake Not wrote:The hacker NOTSHARING thing isn't unclear, just very very strange.

Stealth.. well. You can sneak up on someone who can't see you but hacking works without seeing. Stealth doesn't work on deployables except repeaters because it's the hacker who can't 'see' them coming but that's not how computer screens work, you can't just move in a way that makes you less of a blip. So basically how does not-needing-LoS Hacking interact with if-no-LoS-Stealth?
Some say this is clear, hacking and repeaters are nullified by Stealth. I say hacking doesn't mention it at all neither do repeaters, which makes it seem to me like an oversight. Sure it's clear, in the usual Infinity way of 'probably..' but that FAQ had better come quick.

Like the Repeaters, it's explained as Hackers not wanting to expose themselves too much to the enemy datasphere. If the Hacker Device also acted as a Repeater, there would be Firewall rules as well, and then it gets very, very complicated from there...

You know which Hackers can still share though?

Securitate.