Lethal Weapons/Police Units

[ElectricPaladin]

I just noticed his, but now that I've seen it, it can't be unseen.

Why is it that units that are supposed to be militarized police forces have access to incredibly lethal weapons, while the super elite military forces have access to the nifty non-lethal weapons?

Take the Nomads, for example. Alguaciles, moderators, and scuritate are the police forces of Corregidor, Bakunin, and Tunguska (respectively). Their weapons options are assault rifles, machine guns, sniper rifles, missile launchers, and built-in grenade launchers and shotguns. Who gets weapons that can stun, immobilize, blind, and deactivate an attacker's weaponry? Tomcats, hellcats, intruders, reverend moiras, prowlers, wildcats, riot grrls, zeroes, and military REMs. That's the elite search-and-rescue unit, the insertion unit, black-ops infiltrators, the SWAT team, the operatives of one of Bakunin's churches, and the zealots of another of Bakunin's social movements. It's kind of weird.

If I could change one thing about Infinity, it might very well be that the units who are supposed to be police should have training with and access to nonlethal police-style weaponry!

[solkan]

Budget cuts. That's why.

[Mob of Blondes]

Police is becoming militarized as of today, and they are getting lethal weapons. So in that side, they are just like now. SWATing is no joke, PD are buying military vehicles and so on.

Now, why the militars are getting silly weapons... probably for propaganda, they don't kill (so much... or into multiple parts hard to glue back). Also maimed enemy ties up more enemies and causes bad morale. Older thing that police becoming militarized. And such non lethal weapons normally come from militar things too (blinding lasers? E/M?).

Alternative method: ignore fluff. You know, Ninjas, Knights, swords... bad idea to use CC (let's see what N3 changes in that front, but so far, shot!).

[Guarda de Assalto]

Well the basic line troopers for each nomad sectoral are dual purpose and are actually tasked with repelling military invasions in addition to whatever police functions they might have. This is especially true of the Alugaciles, who actually also operate as mercenary expeditionary units.

Also simply put most line units in the game don't have access to esoteric equipment, it's just not the way line infantry (generally) operate in game.

[ElectricPaladin]

I should clarify - I'm not bugged that the police units also have lethal weapons, and I'm not bugged that the various elite weirdo units also sometimes get the odd nonlethal weapons. Both of these make sense. What bothers me is that the police units generally never get nonlethal weaponry; that the nonlethal weaponry is only in the hands of the elite military formations.

[Harlekin]

We're not talking about huge scale endeavors.. it's individual guys on black ops missions - that's what's represented by a game of Infinity.
So, the army lists don't necessarily say anything about the weaponry units carry in general.
Also, don't forget that any MULTI weapon (including MSR) also can load stun ammo. And that there probably are non-lethal grenades avaliable in the Infinity universe.
Handing a stun Combi Rifle (or a stun pistol as a side arm) to a Moderator wouldn't be so hard, when he is on regular duty, I guess.
But when on an Infinity black ops mission, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense.
And, of course, you'll give the weapons which can one-shot insta-freeze a TAG (ADHL and E/M weaponry) to your elite units and not to the regular grunt, when you can't give one to everybody.

[ElectricPaladin]

We're not talking about huge scale endeavors.. it's individual guys on black ops missions - that's what's represented by a game of Infinity.
So, the army lists don't necessarily say anything about the weaponry units carry in general.
Also, don't forget that any MULTI weapon (including MSR) also can load stun ammo. And that there probably are non-lethal grenades avaliable in the Infinity universe.
Handing a stun Combi Rifle (or a stun pistol as a side arm) to a Moderator wouldn't be so hard, when he is on regular duty, I guess.
But when on an Infinity black ops mission, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense.
And, of course, you'll give the weapons which can one-shot insta-freeze a TAG (ADHL and E/M weaponry) to your elite units and not to the regular grunt, when you can't give one to everybody.

That actually makes some sense...

[Micky]

We're not talking about huge scale endeavors.. it's individual guys on black ops missions - that's what's represented by a game of Infinity.
So, the army lists don't necessarily say anything about the weaponry units carry in general.
Also, don't forget that any MULTI weapon (including MSR) also can load stun ammo. And that there probably are non-lethal grenades avaliable in the Infinity universe.
Handing a stun Combi Rifle (or a stun pistol as a side arm) to a Moderator wouldn't be so hard, when he is on regular duty, I guess.
But when on an Infinity black ops mission, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense.
And, of course, you'll give the weapons which can one-shot insta-freeze a TAG (ADHL and E/M weaponry) to your elite units and not to the regular grunt, when you can't give one to everybody.

I think its entirely conceivable that elite spec-ops troops would have greater access to exotic and non-lethal weapons. This is a world where disabling and capturing the enemy is a desirable outcome, and also where mission objectives generally don't require anyone to be killed. Furthermore, remember that non-lethal weapons are very likely to be a lot stealthier.

[Section9]

I should clarify - I'm not bugged that the police units also have lethal weapons, and I'm not bugged that the various elite weirdo units also sometimes get the odd nonlethal weapons. Both of these make sense. What bothers me is that the police units generally never get nonlethal weaponry; that the nonlethal weaponry is only in the hands of the elite military formations.

As Harlekin says, I figure it's a matter of the Moderators/Aggies/Securitate grabbing the big guns (for them), while the special ops guys are grabbing the specialty tools for the job.

I wouldn't mind seeing more 'police' troops actually packing less-lethal (ain't no such thing as NON-lethal), say, stun ammo (oh, wait, scenario special rule!) or some tear-gas grenades. Problem is, once you start throwing chemicals around, it hits EVERYONE. Even that nasty pepper-foam crap. Why do riot cops wear the gas masks? Well, partly because it is intimidating, but also because as soon as the stupid starts, the tear gas will get everywhere!

Back when I was in high school, one of the kids brought mace or pepper spray to a junior high and sprayed some in a bathroom. They had to evacuate the entire school because fumes had spread everywhere...

[Micky]

Lets give police units Stun CC weapons at the very least.

[Harlekin]

Lets give police units Stun CC weapons at the very least.

Again, the Infinity matches don't represent the arresting of a single burglar - it's a black ops mission on highly valuable target. And the soldiers involved don't wear their everyday gear, but what they need.
And what they don't need is one 'neutralized' guy waking up a minute later to alarm his comrades - or do even worse.

At least, that's how I see it fluffwise but everybody is welcome to have another point of view.

Also, don't forget that there are no such things as non-lethal weapons. You can kill someone with your fists, even more so with a police baton. In fact, it's quite hard to knock somebody out without seriously harming him - especially when it's a trained guy in protective gear.
ADHL comes to mind - but there's the risk of suffocation. Batons are quite serious hand-to-hand weapons. Tasers aren't as reliable as you might think, when the target is wearing "armor"; same for rubber bullets... In general, "nonlethal" ammo has a big problem with armor.

[Pierzasty]

Lets give police units Stun CC weapons at the very least.

Like Electric Pulse?

[Spacefrog]

I completely agree, that the police models need more options on non-lethal weaponry.
I feel that average security forces would be the most common thing to run into in black ops missions anyway, catching them using everyday equipment on patrol or in the streets.

[Harlekin]

Why should they bother carrying around their everyday equipment when they get what they need for their mission?

[Barakiel]

As mentioned, I think it makes more sense to give the specialized, non-lethal equipment to the troops with the best training/restraint to utilize them.

Say you need to breach a fortified positions, neutralize the hostile threats inside, but avoid killing a VIP or destroying sensitive equipment/data in the vicinity that needs to be recovered.

Do you trust that task to the trigger-happy weekend warrior who spends most of his time arresting crazies outside Bakunin nightclubs?

Or do you trust that task to the professional crisis-response operators with years of field experience and training under their belts?

I think it requires more training to utilize restrained, non-lethal equipment when fighting people who are using lethal weaponry in return. Look at a unit like Loup-Garou as an example. They're a highly specialized, very disciplined, well-trained and equipped force designed for crisis reaction and response... And every single one of them comes with non-lethal weaponry. Why? Because their role is to combat especially dangerous and hostile members of their own populace, and gunning down your own citizenry or unleashing storms of shrapnel in populated areas isn't a great idea!

[ToadChild]

As an interesting data point, the Loup Garous are a militarized police unit, and carry one of the most lethal ammunition types (Viral) in addition to a completely nonlethal one (Flash). Their fluff has them using the Viral weapons to keep Dogfaces in line, which is more reasonable.

[Spacefrog]

Why should they bother carrying around their everyday equipment when they get what they need for their mission?

Here's the thing about the kind of missions Infinity revolves around
Half the time one side is just a response force, or an ambushed patrol.
The part where both parties, meet up to fight each other, just don't happen.

This counts double for police units, who are rarely on active missions, there's other troops for that kind of mission

The Loup-Garous are a special exception as they are enforcing a group where the usual non-lethal weapons just don't work

[Math Mathonwy]

The Auxilia are stationed at the "heart of the human sphere" and use Flamethrowers which "is forbidden by the Concilium Convention. Its use will be penalized by international courts."

I don't think that the weaponry choices in Infinity in general make much sense from a fluff point of view.

[Section9]

The Auxilia are stationed at the "heart of the human sphere" and use Flamethrowers which "is forbidden by the Concilium Convention. Its use will be penalized by international courts."

I don't think that the weaponry choices in Infinity in general make much sense from a fluff point of view.

They don't always make sense, no.

Flamethrowers are still in the US and Russian arsenals today as engineering equipment. Nothing beats a flamethrower (thickened liquid fueled flamethrower at that) for clearing jungle. Well, nothing short of a 10-ton pallet of C4 out the back of a transport plane...

I'm guessing that the roller-toasters have a HFT "as a way to cut their way through terrain." Of course, this doesn't stop the Auxilia from using the HFT against opposing troops.

And from another point of argument, since when do the Conventions apply to aliens?

[Hero of Man]

Also of note in modern times, it is technically against the Geneva Convention to shoot someone with an Anti-Material Rifle(.50 cal+); these weapons are only to be used against enemy equipment/material. However, a loop hole in this is, a soldier CAN aim at the enemy's gear, such as his Helmet, Radio, Uniform, Weapon, etc. Basically, its all in the wording of the laws.

[chromedog]

And from another point of argument, since when do the Conventions apply to aliens?

This. I've often wondered why the combine players would care. The EI has already shown itself as far removed from care for human morality or laws - it sees genocide as a functional way of getting what it wants.

You can't use White Phosphorous on people either. So use "exploding smoke". (Another loophole).

[ElectricPaladin]

Also of note in modern times, it is technically against the Geneva Convention to shoot someone with an Anti-Material Rifle(.50 cal+); these weapons are only to be used against enemy equipment/material. However, a loop hole in this is, a soldier CAN aim at the enemy's gear, such as his Helmet, Radio, Uniform, Weapon, etc. Basically, its all in the wording of the laws.

You're allowed to aim at his... uniform?

I'm in Zurich right now. I may have to take a day trip to Geneva just to yell at it. Goddamn, that's stupid.

[Mob of Blondes]

This. I've often wondered why the combine players would care. The EI has already shown itself as far removed from care for human morality or laws - it sees genocide as a functional way of getting what it wants.

EI doesn't waste time with hypocrisy. But the (designers and) players are humans. (And maybe no very prone to think about the crap that goes behind the curtains.) So anthropomorphic aliens, with anthropomorphic war styles, etc, etc.

I can imagine Savoranola talking about this and how all is fake alien, too similar, no brain fucking enough. And if not, I would (and more or less done, but not time to write long rants).

[Math Mathonwy]

I can imagine Savoranola talking about this and how all is fake alien, too similar, no brain fucking enough. And if not, I would (and more or less done, but not time to write long rants).

Wait, isn't Savoranola the guy who thinks that a penis is the height of controversy?

[macbain]

Also of note in modern times, it is technically against the Geneva Convention to shoot someone with an Anti-Material Rifle(.50 cal+); these weapons are only to be used against enemy equipment/material. However, a loop hole in this is, a soldier CAN aim at the enemy's gear, such as his Helmet, Radio, Uniform, Weapon, etc. Basically, its all in the wording of the laws.

You're allowed to aim at his... uniform?

I'm in Zurich right now. I may have to take a day trip to Geneva just to yell at it. Goddamn, that's stupid.

Well you can also not shoot at an captured enemy.
But if they try to run away or escape you can shoot at them.

[Plex]

I can imagine Savoranola talking about this and how all is fake alien, too similar, no brain fucking enough. And if not, I would (and more or less done, but not time to write long rants).

Wait, isn't Savoranola the guy who thinks that a penis is the height of controversy?

Quite the opposite, I think.

[ElectricPaladin]

I can imagine Savoranola talking about this and how all is fake alien, too similar, no brain fucking enough. And if not, I would (and more or less done, but not time to write long rants).

Wait, isn't Savoranola the guy who thinks that a penis is the height of controversy?

Quite the opposite, I think.

He likes to put wangs on things. If that's controversy, it's in the eye if the beholder.

[vorthain]

Is lethality as a big a deal with Cube availability in some cases? I mean, if you kill the body in a police action and the Cube is recovered, they could still be tried in court for their crime.

[Math Mathonwy]

Wait, isn't Savoranola the guy who thinks that a penis is the height of controversy?

Quite the opposite, I think.

He likes to put wangs on things. If that's controversy, it's in the eye if the beholder.

To me it always seemed that he thinks that what he is doing is really edgy. Maybe I got the wrong impression.

[ToadChild]

Is lethality as a big a deal with Cube availability in some cases? I mean, if you kill the body in a police action and the Cube is recovered, they could still be tried in court for their crime.

Of course, not everyone has Cubes.

But also, all E/M weapons that can disable Cubes have specific Concilium wording:

ATTENTION: This Type of ammunition affects Cubes, deactivating them, and is forbidden by the Concilium Convention. Its use will be penalized by the international courts.