Data Sphere

Hey guys!

I brought this question up in another forum and I'd like to increase the sample size of responses as I find this an interesting topic of discussion.

What are the challenges you feel strongly on in this beloved hobby of ours?

- Is it cost related?
- Perhaps it is the lack of locations to play?
- No community presence albeit store availability?
- Time investment required?
- Other reasons?

I have had my fair share of responses from friends who played Infinity but I'd like to hear from the online community too! Gamers, Hobbyist and Brick & Mortar Owners are welcome to answer this question.

I am very interested to know this and I would also take this opportunity to voice out your thoughts because from what I understand, game companies like Corvus Belli do reads stuffs like these in forums. Chances are, they might even address it!!


NOTE: I understand topics such as this can degrade into a negative spiral. Therefore I strongly recommend to be understanding, keep things civil and if you wish to provide suggestions, please make it constructive!

Ha. Interesting question.
I can, of course, answer it from my local perspective only.

- Cost-relataed probems? Not really. Infinity is one of the less expensive miniature wargames to start. You basically need rules (freely downloadable), a handful of models (starter + 1 box + 1-2 blister packs, and you have a neat force with some variablility) and markers (freely downloadable again, and with a bit of ingenuity the paper ones will last).

Sure, it becomes more of an issue if you feel you absolutely need to have all the models for a given faction. Or you want more than one faction. But that's what we call pokemonitis.

- Lack of locations to play? Both my local gaming stores have no problem with whatever system you choose to play on their tables. I'm not a club player, so can't speak for the loacl club scene (I don't even know whether there are still 2 clubs in my area, or if they went inactive).

The amount of terrain required is more of an issue, but both stores allowed us storage space for it (in one case for free, the other asked a minimal monthly fee), also on several occasions we took a box of terrain to play at a pub (okay, it basically required a car to give it a lift).
With enough ingenuity, I think I could make a table (boarding action type) that I could fit in my backpack along with the models. Though that is rather a thing requiring some experience with Infintiy and terrain making.

- No community presence albeit store availability? That's a major problem if you run into it. I mean, if there's nobody to play with, you can't play. I went around it by building a community - and that ook me a few years. Still, I was happy if I had somebody to play against once a week, and for a long time it was the same player each week. Then the others started getting into it (initially, proxying with models from other systems they already had).

Store availability remains nonexisens, basically. I.e. the local stores can order Infinity stuff for us on demand (and we prefer to do so these days as to support them), but they don't keep it in stock. Well, the SKU list is so huge I can hardly feel surprised. Especially given the local Infinity communityy isn't very big.

- Time investment required? Face it. You need about 2 hours to play a game of Infinity. 3 hours, if there are inexperienced players at the table, or it is very complicated for some reason. But that's just as true for most other systems I know.
If you paint your miniatures yourself, Infinity - being a skirmish system - still requires less models painted, piece by piece,than a mass-battle system (I have previous experiences with WFB). Detail level of the miniatures, or time you spend on each of them is an individual thing. Either way, still less than the usually called in competition!

Now you've gone and done it, Errhile, you've set a standard for good replies to this post

Cost: Not so much, I mean we aren't exactly rolling in the dough, but other than having to save up a few months to make a big terrain purchase from MarcC, this is a relatively cheap hobby overall. We already had paints and brushes from when we were still Warmahordes players and the models, even the big boxes, are much more reasonably costed than most other hobbies and you get more use out of them both on the table and in the list building department.

Locations/Store Availability/Community: Now this is a bit trickier. Its not that my LGS isn't nice and friendly, I like the owner that is, but a lot of the guys that frequent it are not on the best of terms with me, so for locations we've got our dining room table; my fiance and I. Even if the aforementioned issue were not an issue, the presence at the LGS is small and there's only one Warcor in the whole state. So there would be issues there.

Time Investment: Now this is tricky. On the one hand, time is not an issue for the game. We can hammer out three or four games in a Saturday afternoon, and a few more around homework and work during the week. What is killing us right now is prep time. Now that's not an issue with the hobby itself, I will point out, more with us; my fiance does the painting and is a perfectionist, and I've got a thing about playing with unpainted models on raw MDF/Card/etc. It does cause issues. Right now, for example, we're waiting on getting a bunch of stuff painted up, and its sort of slowing us down because we don't have enough models to play a decently sized game, so we kind of need to take a break.

Other: Honestly the biggest hurdle, outside of those listed, that I have had with this hobby is bases. The models look to good to put on plain black, but the fancy acrylics cost too much. We tried doing Secret Weapon but their big bases are sized wrong and I feel meh about working with resin. We were going to do Warsenal bases but they're just out of our price range. So now we're down to using modge podged covered paper circles cut from toposolitario's mat, using fine grit with a little black and grey drybrush to give a slight pop and make it not so boring, or just plain black meh. That is honestly my most stressful, nerve wracking, and difficult thing when it comes to this hobby.

ARCangel wrote:Other: Honestly the biggest hurdle, outside of those listed, that I have had with this hobby is bases. The models look to good to put on plain black, but the fancy acrylics cost too much. We tried doing Secret Weapon but their big bases are sized wrong and I feel meh about working with resin. We were going to do Warsenal bases but they're just out of our price range. So now we're down to using modge podged covered paper circles cut from toposolitario's mat, using fine grit with a little black and grey drybrush to give a slight pop and make it not so boring, or just plain black meh. That is honestly my most stressful, nerve wracking, and difficult thing when it comes to this hobby.

I've seen somebody in the offical forum adapting unit logos as decoration for the plain flat bases. I don't know how up-to-date the list is (given HS N3 changes) but most of the stuff is there, available for download. And LoS strips to be applied on the bases, too. Sure, it has its problems, but all in all, I'd be for using that.

I mean, if I weren't using MAS reisin bases from my day one with Infinity.

Cost - While I have to watch my budget along with every one else, this is not really a barrier at this point in my life.
Location - There are two excellent venues in my area that would be more than willing to provide tables for games. They'd also be willing to stock the Infinity line if there were demand, so no worries here either.
Community - there are enough people in the area (I live in a major metropolitan confluence) that a community would rise for someone with the will to create it.
Time - Ah! Here's the rub. I only have so much time these days (a 3 year old son will do that) and what I have is devoted to several things. Though Infinity the tabletop game is one of them, I just have other priorities right now: volunteer work, RPG writing, blah, blah, blah...

Cost is a minor issue, due to my Pokemonitis. This month was expensive, since I bought all the HVTs, Kanren, (new) Azra'il Feuerbach, and the ORC HMG and shottie. And pre-ordered HSN3. Lots of months, though, I don't buy anything, or only one blister because that's all that is out for Yu Jing. Almost my entire Nomad collection was gifts, and it's very nearly complete (everything with Zero Gee as a skill).

Location: The FLGS is dying. The former pillar games of Warhammer/40k and WarmaHordes are dying out, and the store isn't willing to stock Infinity because too few people play it. They are aware of the catch-22 they're placing themselves in.

Community: Well, my work schedule just changed, so I am working on Saturday afternoons now, and that's the time when everyone else has off to play Infinity (or Flames, or try out a Napoleonic game, etc).

Time: as I mentioned, I recently changed my work schedule, so I have less time when others are available to play. I may need to start a Monday night Infinity game at the FLGS.

Children man children nothing from the game, CB or my community is as an issue as my children well family life really.

Getting the right balance of hobby as to family time.

Tekanan wrote:Hey guys!



What are the challenges you feel strongly on in this beloved hobby of ours?

- Is it cost related?
- Perhaps it is the lack of locations to play?
- No community presence albeit store availability?
- Time investment required?
- Other reasons?

1. Cost. Like Errhile, I don't have pokemonitis, so it's not a problem for me. I don't need to buy everything, so stick to the models I like, when I can get them. If it has to wait, it has to wait.

2. Community presence? Store availability is nice (I prefer to buy stuff where I can see the components in the packaging before I hand over the cash, but it's not a necessity. I have two non-store clubs to play at, on at least a bi-monthly timing. When I started, around 2006, there were no infinity players I knew of in my area. It took me 2-3 years to get interest up, then when the right people came along (I don't do "hard sell" or marketing hype, I let the game sell itself. We had a player come in for whom marketing hard sell hype was his raison d'etre - then the game took off locally).

3. Time investment. Couple of hours per game. couple of days per model (at most). No more or less than you would put into any other hobby, really. Certainly fewer hours than previous hobbies (model rocketry).

4. Other reasons: Gaming/family time? I'm married, no kids, but keep a good balance of things. Wife knows it's my "Relaxation" thing. If I'm not spending enough time with her, she tells me, and I cut back on other things. Normally, I don't need to be told. I don't do much in the way of away tourneys (or tourneys in general).

I don t really have problems finding gaming partners, but I have trouble keeping regular gaming partners and getting into regular play, eg. playing a campaign.

I don t have a problem with the costs, I rather have a problem with getting the interest up to paint everything. Today I finally sat down to start painting my new nomad starter, but stopped after putting a bit of paint on the first mini. I have no clue how I managed to paint all those fantasy minis back then.

A very interesting topic. Considering I actually 100% quit Infinity 1,5 years ago and am now back, I could perhaps shed some light on why I did what I did back then.

Cost
Despite all of you claiming Infinity isn't expensive, it actually is. Any regular model is about 5-10€. A starter set comes in around €35, but you need at least another couple of models to make a decent 200pts list. You're easily looking at 50/60€ to get started looking only at the miniatures.

And that's not even counting those big chunks of metal we call TAGs or Morats.

By comparison, that gets me a complete starter army for SAGA (30-40 figures), over two boxes of Bolt Action minis (60 figures) or an Infantry brigade for AWI (90 figures). Admittedly, this is all plastic, but the sheer amount of models you get for the same price as a couple of models in Infinity is staggering.

Of course, you need far fewer models to play Infinity than you need to play these other games. But cheap? Heck no.

Because... once you get your minis, you still need a table!

And whereas I can play Bolt Action or Blackpowder or SAGA with practically no terrain, I will need to shell out to make a proper, non-game-breaking table for Infinity. Or I need to invest a lot of time scratch building. In any case, it's a barrier to new players, for sure.

Locations
I actually have a couple of places to play (including shops), so I shouldn't complain here. And yet the sheer amount of terrain needed for a proper game (again, I say "proper", because I feel like playing with less terrain unbalances the game) makes it a challenge to keep your own table. Setup times are a bitch!

Luckily, I know a few guys who keep their tables set up at all times. Still a hassle and not something that would work for me at home.

Community
It's been hard to keep people aboard, that's for sure. Once I quit, my entire group followed suit.

Most of them were simply daunted by the fact that Infinity is a very unforgiving game. There is always someone with a new model, with new gear or rules, that you don't know how to counter yet. The result was often a turn-1 tabling. This put many of us off.

Some of the other reasons were that most of "my guys" didn't actually paint themselves. When I stopped doing that for them, they tried it themselves or actually paid others. The results were discouraging in either case.

Then there was the esprit-de-corps, which was a little too cutthroat. One of the guys was a self-proclaimed WAAC player and we actually did an intervention with him (he simply didn't want to play casually, he didn't believe in it), but he practically quit afterwards.

Thing is, though, that Infinity requires you to stay invested. Either you need to buy new toys in order to keep surprising your regular opponents. Or you need to get so good at it, that you can use your existing list to take on said new toys.

Now, having said all that, I have a couple of guys around me that still play (and they are going to be reintroducing me into the game) and I will no problem finding games.

Time investment
I've mentioned setup time. I've mentioned time invested in order to stay on top of the rules. Infinity simply isn't a pick-up game and that's a challenge for many people.

For me personally, hosting the games (as I did in my office) became tiring: clearing out the tables, rebuilding them... takes a chunk out of the evening.

Other things
For me, what finally made me quit was the sheer complexity of the game rules. So many gear options, so many weapons... and sadly enough some players who didn't cooperate when you were getting to grips with that ("Boom, you're dead!"). I've played 20+ games of Infinity and I still felt like I was struggling with the gears and not actually driving (if you catch that analogy).

Another thing that made me finally quit was this very forum. I started it years ago with a couple of other guys. Then CB wanted to shut down their forums and asked us to be the new official forums. We started preparing for that and when the switch came, a shitstorm from the community blew up in our face (who did we think we were, wtf are you doing CB, Data Sphere sucks, Arachas is doing this to get better from it, etc etc).

On top of that, CB reversed their decision just like that and we were left with nothing (luckily, Scorch came in and started building the blog, which is still great to this day). I don't blame CB for that move (I had argued against shutting down their own forums from the start), but their communication was so bad it was unprofessional. And I really burned out on the backlash from community back then.

Having said all that, I'm getting back into the game.

Why?

I have played a myriad of other stuff over the last 1,5 years: lots of SAGA (great game), Muskets & Tomahawks (same guys as SAGA, also fun), Batman Miniature Game (written by the first ITS tournament winner, it's like Infinity light).

Frankly, I had more fun with Infinity, despite the frustrations that continued to build up over the time that I played it. I was also burndened by painting for two guys in my group: I tend to grind to a halt if I have too much naked metal staring at me.

I'm hoping HSN3 will make everything a little easier to grasp and keep a handle on.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.

My problem? Not enough people around me play. Too often I run into people way too invested in other systems that they are unwilling to play a new one.

Claudius Sol wrote:My problem? Not enough people around me play. Too often I run into people way too invested in other systems that they are unwilling to play a new one.

I run into this for RPGs fairly often - also for the Infinity RPG - and have not found any magic bullet.

Players in my group tend to stick to games that give them what they want - even if that's D&D much of the time.

My solution has been to run games at local conventions and open gaming days at local stores. Players at conventions are usually far more willing to try new things.

If the problem is that the people are there, but that they aren't making the jump... I suppose that's all about making it easy for them.

Right now, I'm working on a second force to combat my first. I know a couple of people who'd be happy to try this game, but they sure as hell aren't going to paint (some of those people are indeed my old buddies).

The threshold for getting into Infinity can be pretty high. The learning curve is steep. Get a couple of starter forces together and go Icestorm on these guys: start really simple and work your way up.

Few wargamers can resist the lure of such excellent models and sexy terrain.

I bring well painted models and terrain. I let people borrow them for use. I know people would love it. But all of them are against even trying it because they've spent thousands on their one 40k army or several hundreds of dollars on their warmachine army.

I think they just don't want to admit that their money could have been so much better spent, so they shield themselves. Just my supposition.

Claudius Sol wrote:I bring well painted models and terrain. I let people borrow them for use. I know people would love it. But all of them are against even trying it because they've spent thousands on their one 40k army or several hundreds of dollars on their warmachine army.

I think they just don't want to admit that their money could have been so much better spent, so they shield themselves. Just my supposition.

Its not a bad concern, on their part. We're Warmachine converts, and that 1600 or so we dumped into a game that ended up being meh, was kind of a tough pill to swallow. It took us months to buck up and accept the loss. A few months more before we were willing to trust Infinity. (Yes I know that sounds overly emotional but we also gave two years to Warmachine and got little back)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs in money and time terms.

Claudius Sol wrote:I bring well painted models and terrain. I let people borrow them for use. I know people would love it. But all of them are against even trying it because they've spent thousands on their one 40k army or several hundreds of dollars on their warmachine army.

I think they just don't want to admit that their money could have been so much better spent, so they shield themselves. Just my supposition.

Yeah, it's the "army" people that are hardest to sway. I've found that once someone picks up one skirmish-level wargame, they will easily get into a few. Because you only need a couple of models.

Hence the reason I started www.skirmishwargaming.com, to show this kind of gamers what else they could be doing.

Arachas wrote:

Claudius Sol wrote:I bring well painted models and terrain. I let people borrow them for use. I know people would love it. But all of them are against even trying it because they've spent thousands on their one 40k army or several hundreds of dollars on their warmachine army.

I think they just don't want to admit that their money could have been so much better spent, so they shield themselves. Just my supposition.

Yeah, it's the "army" people that are hardest to sway. I've found that once someone picks up one skirmish-level wargame, they will easily get into a few. Because you only need a couple of models.

Hence the reason I started http://www.skirmishwargaming.com, to show this kind of gamers what else they could be doing.

It's been the hardest in the Netherlands as well.. Too many people have invested too deep in another system (most cases 40K), and they are not able to let it go.
Next to that, most of the players are very, very focused on their own club/own people/own whatever, and do not want to look elsewhere..

Weird thing is, Infinity seems to be a game that's about people elsewhere. I've not seen a wargame taking this scale, where people from all different countries and regions exchange ideas, show creativity and best of all; form friendships.

Mine are lack of a local community, lack of fun while playing, the crit-fishing aspect of the game and the fiddlyness of metal miniatures.

Phototoxin wrote:Mine are lack of a local community, lack of fun while playing, the crit-fishing aspect of the game and the fiddlyness of metal miniatures.

I encountered the term 'critfishing' over on the official forum, could you elaborate on it as to what it means?

Sounds like you aren't having such a great time, btw. What makes it not fun for you to play?

Scorch wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:Mine are lack of a local community, lack of fun while playing, the crit-fishing aspect of the game and the fiddlyness of metal miniatures.

I encountered the term 'critfishing' over on the official forum, could you elaborate on it as to what it means?

Sounds like you aren't having such a great time, btw. What makes it not fun for you to play?

Some people believe the player who has to most crits during the game wins automatically.

Its not my personal observation. I took 5 crits during one game this weekend and didn't loose because of that.

I lost because :
1) I failed 2 very important hacking rolls against a heavy armour on turn three.
2) Hsien HMG Lieutenant, in active turn, was killed by 1d20 explosive damage hit after she failed to hit with 4d20s in a Face to Face contest !

I think the problem people are having with Crits in the game is that they are consistently over-estimating their chances to hit. The ManyxOne die mechanic is not an intuitive probability.

My latest challenge in the hobby is getting my LT smoked in two consecutive turns...

Phototoxin wrote:Mine are lack of a local community, lack of fun while playing, the crit-fishing aspect of the game and the fiddlyness of metal miniatures.

With the exception of the tiny miniatures, I think the other two may be related.

No one wants to be active in a hobby that's no fun. Period.

I find that the quality of the folks I game with grossly affects my enjoyment of the games I play.

Games played with a good group tend to be more fun. There ought to be plenty of good groups in your area - it might be time to try a new one!

I have some good friends with whom I enjoy playing, but we don't play each other often.

At tournaments I feel that it either comes down to timing (ie running out due to slow playing opponents) or random crit shenanigans. Maybe I should just embrace the chaos but I don't feel that I *enjoy* games, I come away feeling frustrated, lucky if I have won, annoyed if I have lost. Which isn't good

Sorry for necro-ing this thread, but I just started and the fiddlyness is killing me. Those slender arms on the female models have me thisclose to hiring someone to do it for me.

The only problem I have with infinity is model assembly. I wash them, I clean them. And if they are more then 2 parts, then they won't fit no matter what I do. And god forbid, if the model I like has seperate arms and weapon in a dual hand grip. I think I spent 2 hours trying to glue uxia with a shotgun, and while I know that this is partly to my hands shaking, it still doesn't take away the frustration. I bought uxia, because I wanted the model and wanted to play with it, feels like wasted money right now.

Is it the new (current) Uxia, or the old Uxia?

Generalll,y the new models, with square anchor points, are easier to get together, but I'm not sure whether the new Uxia caught on that technology, or if she's old, round peg-era.

I had similar problems with Sekban, took me a lot of partience (nad then Green Stuff to fill the gaps!) to get them done.

But I must agree - a steady hand is a sine qua non requirement.

It may be a new one. The arm to body part is not a problem, but getting the arms line up to actualy hold the shotgun is a mission impossible. I had same problems with wulvar chicks with swords.

Well, I've checked that - she's pre-digital, i.e. late 2ed. era. Sorry. This problem is not so rare with models of that era, and small contact surfaces aren't making it any easier

what glue do you use? I recommend gel to keep your sanity.