Data Sphere

Check this out:

Well, well, the Evil Empire has blinked.

GW is rebranding its retail outlets in the UK as Warhammer.

Rebranding is one of those panic measures undertaken by management when they don't know what to do. It gives an air of purposeful activity without actually changing anything or attempting to address underlying problems.

Only an idiot abandons a successful, valuable, brand. But imagining that the problems of a toxic brand can be fixed by changing the name is fatuous. Where is Blackwater now?

Link to the article: http://johnstoysoldiers.blogspot.nl/201 ... nding.html

That's some heavy stuff right there. What do you guys think is going on?

Please don't turn this into a GW bashing topic (although sharp criticism is allowed and, to be totally honest, a little expected ).

If this really is a rebranding and not only a temporary installation (for a single event), this could indeed result in the further decline of GW.
Let's thank the gods and muses of gaming for GW to make room for the next generation of tabletop gaming (aka InfiNity)...

Not the first warhammerization, hasn't Games Day become Warhammer Fest?

Is this for real? I saw it before and thought it was a joke.

Tbh it is both worrisome and joyous. Good to see that a company that has clearly become disconneted from a large portion of their customer base ssuffer from it. So the little guy does matter after all.

But be careful what you wish for. The gaming landscape would be very different without their input. I'd much rather they operate in a way that appeals to me than see them fail.

Besides, to see hordes of fat, unwashed, asocial neckbeard to jump ship (Ha! Picture that if you will) to my beloved Infinity..ugh! No thank you, GW can keep them.

Another thing; what can save them is creating a strong, balanced game. I love the universe, as do many others, but they suffer from a bloated and failing system. It is just not a good game.
The thing is.. They recently pushed a new system (while the previous system has been there for...4 years?
Even if the next one to drop will be the best and most balanced system ever, I doubt people will be excited about another system change.

Even BoW the Weekender said it: WH lost its humor, things are getting 'waaay to serious', and cartoony on top of it.

I always disliked the GW universe (especially 40K). While the Fantasy RPG background was ok-ish (second edition time), I was always repelled by the strong vibe of: "Waffen SS in space" that 40K has (and where the Waffen SS are actually the good guys). Even though I know there is some tongue in cheek humour there, I always found it distasteful. That and the constant: "this setting is frozen in time 2 seconds before total apocalypse". As for the game system itself, I didn't mind too much. It's heavy and all, but I suppose it is the historical wargaming background. Anyway, I have always been more of a fan of skirmish games.

Yeah, I personally would play at skirmish level. All those apocalypse size of games are not my thang.
And nothing wrong with disliking the nazi=good guys setting. that's a good thing in my opinion. Haha!

I really like the universe. Fits my bleak outlook. I never bought into a polished clean future such as Star Trek.

The reason I jumped ship was the game. Garbage imo. Too long I had forgive unbalanced rules.

6th had only been out 2 years before 7th. Cost is a whole separate argument.

It would take a lot for me to go back but I still don't want to see them fail, just the error of their ways.

Bobman wrote:I really like the universe. Fits my bleak outlook. I never bought into a polished clean future such as Star Trek.

The reason I jumped ship was the game. Garbage imo. Too long I had forgive unbalanced rules.

6th had only been out 2 years before 7th. Cost is a whole separate argument.

It would take a lot for me to go back but I still don't want to see them fail, just the error of their ways.

Haha, that's why I like infinity so much. I personally find 40k to be over the top grimdark, and Star Trek too clean and shiny.

I find Infinity, and Star Wars original trilogy for example, to have this great mix of underground shadiness, combined with the gleam and gold of the few. I love the mix and find it much more relatable than both extremes like 40k or Star Trek.

What I do like about 40k is the open massiveness. You can seriously do anything within the boundaries. It's the whole universe, with all kinds of planets/weirdness etc. You can have your own corner of the galaxy to fight with friends, and dropping most of the fluff for your own, or stay totally in tune with it all.

I'm in the same boat as Scorch: 40k is just some pubertal heavy metal fan-fantasy with suffering, atrocities and grimdarkily grimdark grimdarkness everywhere. Yeah, hooray... sooo much depth -_-
And Star Trek is plainly good-doing humanity versus forei... er, aliens. Yeah, hooray...

And to be so very honest: even thoug I had a lot of fun with 40k (and other GW games) for about 15 years, the game never was good. It was kind of fun, but never a good game.
And I'm pretty sure, the huge mass of the stereotypical GW fan will more likely be drawn towards WarmaHordes with its similar "aestethics" (the wording is quite debatable) and game play. So, let them have those and let's get rid of 80% of the GW company and the new GW be run by a handful of enthusiast. Maybe then, it will be able to shine again.

Harlekin wrote:I'm in the same boat as Scorch: 40k is just some pubertal heavy metal fan-fantasy with suffering, atrocities and grimdarkily grimdark grimdarkness everywhere. Yeah, hooray... sooo much depth -_-
And Star Trek is plainly good-doing humanity versus forei... er, aliens. Yeah, hooray...

And to be so very honest: even thoug I had a lot of fun with 40k (and other GW games) for about 15 years, the game never was good. It was kind of fun, but never a good game.
And I'm pretty sure, the huge mass of the stereotypical GW fan will more likely be drawn towards WarmaHordes with its similar "aestethics" (the wording is quite debatable) and game play. So, let them have those and let's get rid of 80% of the GW company and the new GW be run by a handful of enthusiast. Maybe then, it will be able to shine again.

LOL. Yeah. I just shake my head anytime I see their products.

Scorch wrote:I find Infinity, and Star Wars original trilogy for example, to have this great mix of underground shadiness, combined with the gleam and gold of the few. I love the mix and find it much more relatable than both extremes like 40k or Star Trek.

I agree, I find infinity a believable future for humanity from now. 40K was/is exactly that "absurd" fantasy, that never really made sense for me. I can relate to and get into the story of a game of infinity while I play it.
40K or even fantasy was watching my nice looking minis be removed from the board as I get curb stomped by someone who has the ultimate cheese list.
standing there wondering "why did I put sooo much effort into painting that big block of infantry when they spend such little time on the board?".

That and since making the heart tearing decision to leave GW and dive into a different game system (both warmahordes and Infinity) I have found both their respective social gaming communities to be of better quality. Being friendlier and more involved with promoting their game and hobby.

Can't say I'm surprised, really.

GW has been dying a slow death from incompetence since about 2006 (whenever 5ed shipped, think that was 2006 or 7). I'd played a couple games and bought a few minis in 2e, but held out for 3e before really jumping in and buying armies. 3e was a major shift from 'big skirmish' to company-plus battles. 4e was actually an improvement over 3e in a lot of ways, not just a 'need more revenue, churn a new edition.'

Hell, when I first saw Infinity minis, my reaction to the TAGs was "cool proxy Crisis suits"! One of my Guijia models had the HMG removed with a dremel tool and replaced with a plastic Tau plasma rifle!

But then 5e hit, and screwed up everything I liked about the game. True Line of Sight is great for a small skirmish game like Infinity, or maybe a game as big as Rogue Trader or early 2e. You are [expletives deleted] out of your [expletives deleted] mind if you [expletives deleted] think that checking [expletives deleted] LOS for 100 [expletives deleted] minis per side is an improvement over the old way.

The annual price increases were pissing me off, but 5e's True Line of Sight alone was enough to outright kill any enjoyment I had in playing the game.

GW seems to be an excellent case for full-on LAWS (and I'm rather libertarian about government regulation, the less regulation the better) absolutely banning the payment of CEOs in stock. Because it seems that every company where part of the CEO's pay has been in stocks or stock options, the CEO has driven the company into the dirt, just to make more $$ on the stocks when he sells them.

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I could see issues with most of the editions but could get round them ad nothing is perfect. I enjoyed games off all of them. The only ones I didn't play were 3rd (hiatus) and 7th (abandoned).

For me it's more the army rules and the apparent pay to win business model. The Helldrake is an example of incompetent rules writing imo. Couple that with the fact I've been priced out of the ability to buy new armies means I have to stick to cycles of major disadvantages before even getting to the table.

I actually like the 40k fluff. That kept me on board as long as I was. I had switched from a GW game system to the fan made Death Squads skirmish game, so that was a little better to bear. It was still based on crappy GW rules, but what kept us going is the ENDLESS fluff possibilities, the humor, the weird stuff happening, the heroics, the fun scenarios.

Honestly, though I think Infinity is a gazillion times better game system than DS ever was... when it comes to narrative play and campaigning, Infinity doesn't hold a candle to Death Squads and its mother-system: Mordheim. Gaining XP per model, growing and grooming your guys... it was just so much fun.

Harlekin wrote:I'm in the same boat as Scorch: 40k is just some pubertal heavy metal fan-fantasy with suffering, atrocities and grimdarkily grimdark grimdarkness everywhere. Yeah, hooray... sooo much depth -_-

It's gone that way in much of its most recent incarnations, but if you ignore the stuff that was written by a squirrel on expresso:



... there is actually a pretty decent beast under there.

I run on a mix of 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition with the 5th edition Dark Eldar codex thrown in for good measure, to which I add most Forge World and Fantasy Flight stuff (as they actually write sensibly), some of the Black Library authors (Sandy Mitchell is probably my top choice) and then top it off with an extra reminder that the whole thing isn't meant to take itself too seriously.

I have to agree with Arachas: Mordheim was the only redeeming set of rules in the GW range.

Alphast wrote:I have to agree with Arachas: Mordheim was the only redeeming set of rules in the GW range.

I've started dabbling into Malifaux, because it's got kind of the same vibe. Sadly, Malifaux doesn't sport that awesome campaign and RPG system that made Mordheim so much fun.

Arachas wrote:

Alphast wrote:I have to agree with Arachas: Mordheim was the only redeeming set of rules in the GW range.

I've started dabbling into Malifaux, because it's got kind of the same vibe. Sadly, Malifaux doesn't sport that awesome campaign and RPG system that made Mordheim so much fun.

Say, why not set something like that up in Infinity? I mean.. sure.. the fiction is more set in stone.. but it only writes about the 'upper part' of the world; politics, O-12 level, etc...
I have no doubt Haqqislamic and Nomads work together with Yu Jing operatives to take down a PanO facility or something like that. The Dire Foes missions already talk a lot about these kinds of collaborations. So you can easily push these personas in the Infinity
You have the system, just toggle some of the variables. Infinity has beautiful models that can easily benefit becoming a named character in a story. The exp stuff you can work out yourself.

Arachas wrote: when it comes to narrative play and campaigning, Infinity doesn't hold a candle to Death Squads and its mother-system: Mordheim.

I'm going to share a similar sentiment regarding narrative play, but for me it's still about Inquisitor.

Even though it was never grossly popular*, even at its peak, there's so many things that keep me coming back to it, and the unusual opportunities for truly flexible narrative play are right up there.

*In fact, its unpopularity is almost one of the other things that keeps me coming back to it. Because it's never been in the mode, the few Inquisitor veterans there are have only stuck with it out of sheer dedication and commitment, which makes them extraordinary people to game with.

Alphast wrote:I have to agree with Arachas: Mordheim was the only redeeming set of rules in the GW range.

I honestly really like the Lord of the Rings rules, especially the War of the Ring big-battle version. Those are excellent rules for any setting where you want characters to support the fighting, not do all the fighting themselves.

Though it's interesting that the old Legends of the [whatever] Warhammer Historical rules were a mix of Lord of the Rings and Mordheim.

The challenge with making some character-advancement rules work in Infinity is how much deadlier the game is, and the underlying assumption about how many 'plain grunts' you have. I really need to find my Mordheim rules (or harass someone for an electronic copy of the Mordheim LRB) and fuss with them a bit.

I had sizeable forces for both Mordor and the Elves for War of the Ring. I ended up selling both: what really broke that game for me was, again, lack of balance. The Nazgul were far too powerful (especially Khamul) and evil in general was more powerful than good. That and the utter lack of support from GW.

I've not been able to find a balanced GW game to date, really.

@Section9: your comment on character development is dead on. A point of BS is HUGE, for example, but that's a common level-up reward. Then again, Mordheim also starts with DOWNGRADED miniatures, in order to create space for improvement. If we could work out a system where our models are modified for use in a "growth" type of campaign... maybe that could work.

Death Squads never copied stats straight from the main game: we always came up with stats that we felt represented the models and yet left enough room for growth. Growth was also capped: not every model could get Strength or Toughness 5, for example.

If we can work out an RPG campaign system for Infinity I will seriously lose any interest in life apart from it, LOL.

Speaking the general conversations about trying to RPG up your Infinity I'd like to make a couple of comments;
If you're looking for a way to explain having units from multiple factions working together the easiest way would probably be a mercenary unit. I mean the mercenary rules in the Infinity main book are basicly this to begin with. The other way I would suggest is to do something based on an O12 Special ops unit, with members recruited from all parts of the human sphere working together to keep humanity safe and the relative peace in place (an occasionally working behind each others back to better their own factions agendas.)

Secondly it is a good point that it would be very hard to do a character based RPG with the infinity rules, what with minor stat changes being as major as they are. The eaiser way to do this might be to expand from infinity's d20 base system into a d100 based system, sort of like the way the FFG guarhammer games do things. Can still be fairly brutal but gives you more flexibility for small changes at each level. or to do something where it's the group or army that levels up rather than a single model, although that would be fairly difficult without just having things turn into an escalation game type thing.

As a note more to the original post;

I'm not sure about the style of this rebranding, it's far more subtle and subdued then the old sign. Maybe that fits with GW's intention to create a more "elite and mature" gaming community as they've been claiming they want to (for better or worse I won't get into). but it seems like this much more subtle approach will dramaticly reduce walk ins and random attention, resulting in less new players.